The Time Has Come!! - (speaker recommendation)

[fandango]

Hey everyone,

I have been posting on and off and reading comments on this forum for over a year now. During that time I was trapped in the 'waiting for the next big thing' phase.
Waiting for HDMI 1.3
Waiting to relocate
waiting until i get a better tv
waiting for the format war to end
etc.. etc...

Yesterday I made the realization that I simply cannot stand to listen to my Samsung LCD TV speakers anymore... (they are TERRIBLE ). The time has come to buy a system!
I have owned bad, cheap systems, and have also owned a pair of great and massive cerwin vega speakers with crappy rear speakers in the past, But i have never owned a true home theater system.

Here are my limitations and desires for the system:
1. Primary use - Home Theater surround sound, Movies, TV, (some music for parties)
2. I live in a 1200 sqf hardwood floor apartment. My living room is probably 500 sqf although it is not a rectangle. A diagram is provided below, i would say that if you created a rectangle around just the seating area, it would probably be 150-250sqf. one advantage is that I have over 1 meter of room between the back of my couch and the rear wall. I also have over one meter of space to the right of my couch (before the wall), but the left of my couch is crowded. The (x) marks where I am planning on placing the speakers. If I go with something like Orb speakers I will get 7.1. otherwise size constraints will limit me to 5.1 or maybe 6.1

|---------------|
| |
| |
| dining |
| |
| ------------
|x x x|- (entrance)
| TV |
| Seating |
|x x x|
----------------------------

3. Relatively limited space coupled with spouse factor... I can easily do free standing front speakers. Might be able to do stand-mounted rear speakers (although wife might have issues...), side speakers would have to be wall mounted. My only concern is that I really want maximum surround sound, I have made the mistake in the past of getting huge front and tiny back speakers - rendering the back speakers useless...

4. I have about 2-2.5K to spend on just the speakers. (willing to build, budget doesn't have to include the Sub)

5. although i am not in an apartment complex (free-standing bungalow-style unit), I do still have neighbors... instead of blowing women's dresses off with bass (fun as that would be), I am looking for perfect, accurate, crisp, detailed home theater surround sound!

To date here are a few systems that I have been considering:
Orb Audio 7.1 system (great trade off - less money, more space, 7.1)
RBH M-series - (floor-standing front, wall-mounted or stand-mounted rear, probably 5.1)
RBH MC-series - (floor-standing or stand-mounted front depending on what would be better for surround purposes, stand-mounted rear, 5.1)
Mirage Omisat v-2 - (nice combo of floor standing front and satellite surround, although it concerns me to have such a discrepancy between the front and the rear for good surround)

Considering the size of the listening area, the 5.1 vs 7.1 trade-off, the pure home theater surround emphasis, the wife factor, and the budget, what would you recommend??

I live in LA, which has lots of great HT stores, so sampling speakers shouldn't be a problem. i am trying to build a short list and also gain knowledge on what I should consider.
Is a bookshelf, stand mounted 5.1 system better than a 7.1 Orb audio system, specifically for HT surround??
I like the idea of wall mounting, so that I can put speakers on the side as well, although the wall speakers would have to be small and would have to fit with the rest of the system.

This is almost torturous how complicated it can be...

As always thank you very much for all your help.

Really looking forward to hearing what people have to say!!

 

[OttoMatic]

Hey there,

I dont' have any particular recommendations for speakers, but I'd probably suggest you go with just 5.1 for the time being. The forum deleted all the spaces in your diagram (I hate that!), but it looks like you might be up against a wall, with little room for the two rear speakers. Stick with 5.1 or 5.0 and build up. It'll give you more budget for speakers now!

 

[ParadigmDawg]

5.1 is plenty to "surround" yourself in sound. I have a vey big room and it's all I use or need.

 

[fandango]

Sorry, My diagram didn't come out...

I also failed to mention that I currently have a pioneer elite DVD player (i think dv59) and an old pioneer receiver. I will be upgrading to a new Yammy, denon or pioneer elite, hdmi1.3 receiver soon. I have a 40" Samsung HD LCD tv.

Here is my living room again.
The (x) marks where I would place a 7.1 Orb system on the wall

The couch area is 2 seperate couches making an L shape, one of them is against the left hand wall, the other sits in the middle room. (the left x behind the couch (at the bottom middle of the diagram) would have to be wall mounted)


|-------------------------
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
| . . . . . .Dining . . . . . . .|
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .--------------------
|x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .x . . . . . . . . . . x .|
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . |
|x TV . . . . . . . . . . . . couch .| . . . . . . . . . . |
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ______| . . . . . . . . . . |
|x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .x . . . . . . . . . . .x |
----------------------------------------------

 

[OttoMatic]

Cool. Looks like you have room for 7.1, so it's up to you. I've not gone to 7.1 yet, and am happy with 5.1.

I think it'd be well under your $2k budget, but I've been liking the vibe of the SVS SCS-01 set. I've not heard them, but if I were going w/ straight HT, I'd give them a shot. Add the sub of your choice (big SVS, HSU or Velodyne woudl be contenders for me).

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I am just going to post my normal reply on here.

If you can; try to find as many speakers in your price range and go audition them. Here is a list of my favorite most of which I auditioned 5 months ago.

Paradigm studio series
Warefedale Evo series
PSB Image series
KEF IQ series
Monitor Audio RS series
Ascend CMT-340
AV123 Rockets
Aperion Intimus 633

Any good dealer at a high-end store will discount you a "package deal"

Also check out the package deals from AV123 and SVS.

Once you figure out your speakers the AVR will be the easy part.
__________________

 

[fandango]

Thanks,

It is so hard just to create a short list of speakers to consider. Everytime someone mentions a new set to look at (i.e. SVS), there is another excellent review, filled with superlatives which casts doubt over all the previous systems I was considering...

i guess I just have to go to the biggest high end audio store i can find and sample all of them...

P.S. what is the deal with bookshelf speakers that are stand-mounted? I think I have read that you cannot place them too close to a wall??

I want a great system that will last me but that won't be too obtrusive.

Also, what about the front-speaker/ back-speaker disparity... Should I aim to get a set where all the speakers are the same size? does it matter if I get large free standing front and small rear speakers?

What about getting 4 free standing speakers and a center channel? (i.e. 4 MC-6CT) positioned in each corner?? would that be better than getting bookshelf rear speakers? or better than getting something like the SVS system where all the speakers are the same size? how do all of these comared to getting a 7.1 wall mounted Orb system???
AARRHHHH..... too...many...decisions.....

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Seems like a bookshelf would work in a bookself doesnt it? You dont want speakers in enclosures or too close to walls. A bookshelf on a stand is an idea set-up and is what I would suggest unless you can go with a tower. I wouldnt mount anything on a wall or ceiling except the surrounds and many would argue with that. I use very large bookshelfs on stands and my surrounds are just a good pair of in-ceilings.

If I had a 2K budget I would be looking at the package from AV123.

 

[jostenmeat]

fandango,

All this time "waiting" should have been spent auditioning. No excuse, as you live in a major metropolitan area. You have the world to choose from. Reviews, reviews, reviews, blah blah blah. You might be surprised on how quickly you will form your own opinion as soon as you get out there. For my own ears, there were several speakers I was immediately and brutally disappointed with, even those that might make a TAS' best of '06 list for instance.

There is no way to be sure until you get out there. I live in SoCal as well, and I visited more stores than I can remember. Double digit dealers, EASY. Favorite speakers got about 5-6 visits. I used that "waiting" time to my advantage... Anyways, off my soap-box.....

I am a fan of 7.1. I find it to be much more enveloping. Here is a current AVS thread regarding the matter, some opinions:
"7.1 channel ... is it worth it vs. 5.1 ?"
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=890539&page=1&pp=30

If you are stuck with 5.1, (and assuming multi-channel music is not a concern), I would seriously consider some di-poles/bi-poles/quad-poles, like those made by PSB, B&W, Polk, Axiom, to name a few. They are definitely pricier, but still pretty manageable in your budget. You may have to locate them carefully, whether on the side walls or back walls. Shoot, even in a 7.1 system, for HT only, I myself would consider bipolar surrounds. (I use all monopoles, for particular, personal reasons).

I haven't heard any of the speakers you've litsed (So many brands out there, eh?).

If you happen to go with a 5.1, and are thinking surrounds mounted on stands behind you... I would consider towers in the rear. (Assuming you can get that one by the wife). Dolby and DTS do send out full-range signals to the surrounds. Sure, depending on the movie, you won't always get low bass, but I've heard my surrounds bottom out on more than one occasion, and they are rated to go down to 45hz(-3db). Particularly on movies like LOTR, Black Hawk Down, etc. Well, the main reason I did choose bookshelves, in fact the only reason, is that I could get stands high enough to get the tweeter to fire over the blocking furniture. Otherwise, Id take the money on stands, and defintitely put those towards towers. In my case, towers would cost almost exactly the same as stands+bookshelves

I enjoy the PSB Image line, great slam, very good male and female voice. Though unforgiving with easily detectable hiss on poor recordings, in my experience. Affordable. I don't like the black ash, but enjoy the sienna and maple finish, in that order.

Depending on which specific models you choose, I'd also be taking a good look at the the B&W 68 series. I think you may have to wait for the other finishes to start arriving.

With your decent budget, Im sure there are endless possibilities...

 

[ParadigmDawg]

fandango,

but I've heard my surrounds bottom out on more than one occasion, and they are rated to go down to 45hz(-3db). Particularly on movies like LOTR, Black Hawk Down, etc. ...

Maybe you should cross them over properly

 

[jostenmeat]

Maybe you should cross them over properly

Ya, you're right. Im in a holding pattern to upgrade the pre/pro to one that has multiple x-over points, among various other things. Maybe I should just x-over up at 80hz for now...

Greg Gable, do you know which hi-fi pre/pro's have preset x-over points per source input for not just the various speakers, but the sub as well? Input appreciated, thanks.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I sure dont but a few of the guys were talking about it yesterday in the "amp" section and mentioned some that do so go check there and see if you can find it.

Ya, you're right. Im in a holding pattern to upgrade the pre/pro to one that has multiple x-over points, among various other things. Maybe I should just x-over up at 80hz for now...

Greg Gable, do you know which hi-fi pre/pro's have preset x-over points per source input for not just the various speakers, but the sub as well? Input appreciated, thanks.

 

[fandango]

Thanks everyone for all the great advice.


I have been called out for not going out there and sampling... I know i should have, but i just kept telling myself it was a wast of time if I wasn't going to purchase... (although if I had gone I would have been impulsive.)


I never realized that getting free standing as surrounds cold be preferable. I figured there was a reason why you always see bookshelf surrounds.

Now that I am sitting in my living room, the choice is going to come down to a 5.1 free standing system (One free standing in each corner with a center up front), Or a small 6.1/ 7.1 system either on the wall or stand-mounted. I think I might be able to do the SVS system in 6.1 or 7.1, but my side speakers will limit me going any larger.

I guess I will just have to go to the shops and have a good long listen.

Jostenmeat - Thanks for the great link you sent. very helpful.
Also, what stores would you recommend? I am on the west side.

 

[jostenmeat]

You're welcome fandango.

Pm sent (sorry bout the long one). Feel free to ask any questions. If you got towers for the rears, do you think the tweeters have space to fire over the couch? I think in most cases, it cuts it close at best. My thoughts.

 

[mazersteven]

3. Relatively limited space coupled with spouse factor... I can easily do free standing front speakers. Might be able to do stand-mounted rear speakers (although wife might have issues...), side speakers would have to be wall mounted. My only concern is that I really want maximum surround sound, I have made the mistake in the past of getting huge front and tiny back speakers - rendering the back speakers useless...

4. I have about 2-2.5K to spend on just the speakers. (willing to build, budget doesn't have to include the Sub)

If I had $2K-$2.5K for speakers only. And needed to meet the requirements you've listed. I would be looking at a system like this.

http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=11.1

Or something like this system. (I haven't heard this system. But it's been getting lots of positive feedback). On Sale

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_30&products_id=47

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_30&products_id=49

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_30&products_id=50

 

[EJD]

In addition to the speakers Greg mentioned, I would look into NHTs. I have been a big fan of theirs for quite a while and you could get a sweet setup with Classic Threes and a Three C up front with Classic Twos or Absolute Zero's for the surrounds. In addition to sounding great, they are drop dead gorgeous speakers - if you like black.

Link to NHT stuff

The NHTs are all sealed box speakers, so they can be placed on bookshelves or closer to walls with more success than ported designs. The downside is that they are a bit less sensitive than ported designs, so they will require a bit more power to acheive the same volume level.

If black speakers aren't your thing, I also really like my KEFs. They have a variety of sizes and finishes in their iQ line, including dipoles for surrounds.

Link to KEF stuff

I would look into Hsu Research for the sub, Not because NHT or KEF make bad subs (I have an NHT and like it), but I think you get a bit more for your $ with Hsu.

My $.02 on a couple of other things you brought up:

• stick with 5.1 in your room
• go with bookshelves for surrounds

Good Luck!

 

[Davemcc]

If you got towers for the rears, do you think the tweeters have space to fire over the couch? I think in most cases, it cuts it close at best. My thoughts.

I would think that if your ears are higher than the back of the couch, you would hear the sound from rear towers just fine, but that's just my simple logic.

 

[rnatalli]

The Orbs are pretty high on the WAF factor. My wife was also fond of the Magnepans for looks, but we didn't like the way they sound. Audition, audition...

 

[fandango]

WOW,

Thank you everyone for all the great replies!

I have juts one last question which I think is very important.

The space where my speakers will be setup is about 20 feet long by 15-18 feet wide. My couch is about 12 feet from the front (tv) and 5 feet from the back. My questions are:

• Is this considered a small or medium listening space?
• Why are some speakers not appropriate for small spaces (i read that some tower speakers are only for big rooms)
• Is my listening space too small for free standing speakers?
• What considerations should I have when listening to speakers given the size of my room?

When I sample speakers they might sound great at the demo facility, but do I need to be worried about different size room when I get them home??


lastly, i have hard wood floors with a natural fiber rug in the middle of the room. insulation is probably out of the question with the spouse factor.. (can't be putting egg crate up on the walls....)

• Is hard wood floor a big negative for listening environments?
• Is there something I should take into account or consider when choosing speakers for a hard wood floor environment? (i.e. many free standing speakers have spikes which i could not use on my hard wood... would stand speakers be better for damping vibrations compared to free standing towers????)

Thank you all very very much

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Assuming you have 10ft ceiling you are at 3600 cubic feet; which is a pretty good sized room.

Towers are fine for your room and so are bookshelfs.

All speakers will sound different in your house then at the dealer so makes certain you can return them

A lot of us have hardwood floors and there is a beauty in the livliness(sp) of a hard floor. Get some heavy draps if you can and use a lot of pillows on your couches. Later on you can talk her into some room treatments (I am still working on this myself) Watching movies with fat guests is a big plus too. You can just use some rubber skid pads under you stands to de-couple them from the floor.