SEALED 12" Kit?

[avaserfi]

BFD = Behringer Feedback destroyer. A parametric eq I am sure you know more about than me .

 

[annunaki]

Thanks for clearing that up. I have not seen that term used before. The DCX2496 may be a better solution. Definitely check that out as well.

 

[speakerman39]

Honestly, I would consider another PB-12NSD. That will help in the slam department and balance response better through out the room. I would also invest in a behringer DCX2496 digital crossover eq for your subwoofers. You will be able to get the exact response you are after in the bass department. I would also suggest moving to a speaker that has more midbass oomph to match your sub(s). It sounds to me this is really what can make "the" difference. Getting a pair of speakers for your fronts that are good down to 40hz-50hz should help out a lot. Multiple drivers (for mid bass) will help you out there as well.

If you must do a new sub(s) it is sounding like the Rythmik may be a good choice for you. Sealed may be a decent route to go, but I would definitely do the EQ in that instance. After having that SVS the real deep bass will be less than what you are used to with a ported system.

If it is accuracy and slam you are after you may want to consider a DIY with two of the JL Audio 12W6v2 or 13W6v2 in properly done ported or sealed enclosures. They are pricey drivers ($430-$530 retail each) I admit, but they are some of the most accurate subs I have heard to date and that includes my W7 and SVS PB-12 Ultra. Mate them up with an EP2500 and a DCX 2496 and you have one hell of an accurate sub system.

Thanks for the info BUT I will not be getting another PB12-NSD. Yes, it would give me a more balnced frequency response BUT I want to do something different. I am looking into the Behringer Feedback Destroyers (BFD) including the one you recommend. I also will NOT mess with any type of ported enclosure if I build the sub myself. Too much for me and the last thing I want is port noise/chuffing issues. Sealed is the way I will have to go. I am aware that JL makes very nice stuff but it is all out of my price range. The Rythmik kit really looks doable as does the PE kits as well. I have narrowed it down to a few possibilities and will make a decision sooner or later as I am in no hurry. But, thanks for all of your help as I can tell you are quite knowledgable regarding this hobby.

 

[speakerman39]

Thanks for clearing that up. I have not seen that term used before. The DCX2496 may be a better solution. Definitely check that out as well.

Mind if I ask you why you prefer the DCX2496 as opposed to the 1124P OR the DSP2496???? In other words, what will the additional cost give me the others won't?

 

[annunaki]

Thanks for the info BUT I will not be getting another PB12-NSD. Yes, it would give me a more balnced frequency response BUT I want to do something different. I am looking into the Behringer Feedback Destroyers (BFD) including the one you recommend. I also will NOT mess with any type of ported enclosure if I build the sub myself. Too much for me and the last thing I want is port noise/chuffing issues. Sealed is the way I will have to go. I am aware that JL makes very nice stuff but it is all out of my price range. The Rythmik kit really looks doable as does the PE kits as well. I have narrowed it down to a few possibilities and will make a decision sooner or later as I am in no hurry. But, thanks for all of your help as I can tell you are quite knowledgable regarding this hobby.

IF you are going to go sealed, you will NEED a subwoofer that has very capable linear excursion. You will also need a subwoofer with capable excursion "headroom" if you will be using an EQ to boost the low end. You may want to look into a passive radiator design if ported is not an option. Some of the TC sounds subs do really well in sealed environments. I would still try to do multiple subs if you can. What is your total budget for your project?

 

[annunaki]

Mind if I ask you why you prefer the DCX2496 as opposed to the 1124P OR the DSP2496???? In other words, what will the additional cost give me the others won't?

I like the unit because it does so much. You can control your setting via your pc. It has 60 presets, and if you run multiple subs, you can perfectly balance the room response as you can tweak each one individually (due to 6 channel outputs). It also has eq setups for the bass region only. It has upgradable software as well.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=248-669

It is much more versatile than the other units, even though they are very nice.

 

[speakerman39]

IF you are going to go sealed, you will NEED a subwoofer that has very capable linear excursion. You will also need a subwoofer with capable excursion "headroom" if you will be using an EQ to boost the low end. You may want to look into a passive radiator design if ported is not an option. Some of the TC sounds subs do really well in sealed environments. I would still try to do multiple subs if you can. What is your total budget for your project?

Budget.............??????? Oh right now not much.................LOL!!!!! No, not sure really but it will not be much over $600 if at all. Sealed is the way I am going. Just looking for musicality and nothing more. Tight articulate well defined bass that does reproduce transients superbly. Lots of definition and precision while staying linear with very low distortion. Basically, I want it all and I want it NOW!!!!! Holy crap I heard this on a song the other day by Queen if I remeber correctly!!!!!!!

 

[speakerman39]

I like the unit because it does so much. You can control your setting via your pc. It has 60 presets, and if you run multiple subs, you can perfectly balance the room response as you can tweak each one individually (due to 6 channel outputs). It also has eq setups for the bass region only. It has upgradable software as well.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=248-669

It is much more versatile than the other units, even though they are very nice.

Great, I will look into it. Have a good evening.

 

[annunaki]

Budget.............??????? Oh right now not much.................LOL!!!!! No, not sure really but it will not be much over $600 if at all. Sealed is the way I am going. Just looking for musicality and nothing more. Tight articulate well defined bass that does reproduce transients superbly. Lots of definition and precision while staying linear with very low distortion. Basically, I want it all and I want it NOW!!!!! Holy crap I heard this on a song the other day by Queen if I remember correctly!!!!!!!

For $600 you are going to spend about half or more on an amplifier and eq if you want to do it right. On that type of budget the TC-1000 from TC sounds looks like a tough sub to beat. Nearly one inch of one-way linear excursion for only $169.00 on a 12" woofer

I have not seen the dumax reports for the sub to check it's linearity but I would assume they are pretty good.

The other option would be the Dayton Titanic MKIII 12" or the Dayton High Fidelity 12". I am suggesting 12" drivers so as to do two of them. Get the Behringer EP2500 for $350, two TC-1000's for $338. You are a bit over budget but you should have some kick but bass. Then in 3-4 months add the DCX2496 and you will have world class sub bass for under $1,000.00.

 

[speakerman39]

For $600 you are going to spend about half or more on an amplifier and eq if you want to do it right. On that type of budget the TC-1000 from TC sounds looks like a tough sub to beat. Nearly one inch of one-way linear excursion for only $169.00 on a 12" woofer

I have not seen the dumax reports for the sub to check it's linearity but I would assume they are pretty good.

The other option would be the Dayton Titanic MKIII 12" or the Dayton High Fidelity 12". I am suggesting 12" drivers so as to do two of them. Get the Behringer EP2500 for $350, two TC-1000's for $338. You are a bit over budget but you should have some kick but bass. Then in 3-4 months add the DCX2496 and you will have world class sub bass for under $1,000.00.

Sounds like a good plan BUT is a bit out of my budget. Really dont think I need all that either. But, I will keep it in mind. Thanks for your help.

 

[speakerman39]

Have most of the 15" drivers you heard been properly calibrated and balanced within the system it is used? 15" woofer can often sound "sloppy" as you say but it is due to the fact they are improperly set up, not that they are actually "sloppy" or "slow". They sound that way because the bass is too hot, overpowering everything else rather than blending in the way they should. Most 15" woofers do best with a x-over point around 60hz, some you can do a bit higher. I did a 15" Dayton Titanic MKIII with a 500 watt plate amp and a 3.0 ft^3 sealed enclosure for my parents (60hz x-over) and it is not boomy or sloppy at all. It is nice, tight and controlled. It is also well calibrated within the system though.

You know, this is exactly the same set-up I have been pondering as well as the 12" Rythmik Servo kit. How is the 15" Titanic MKIII with music? By any chance you have a response curve to post OR could you post some #s so as to get a better idea? How would , in your opinion, the 15" High Fiedelity Dayton sub perform with a 3 ft^3 enclosure and the Dayton 500 watt plate amp????? How about the 12" version (2 ft^3 cabinet) and the 10" (1 ft^3)version respectively speaking????

 

[annunaki]

Without hearing the High fidelity subs in person, yet, I realyy cannot comment on them. However, based upon the ported response chart for the 12" I would think that they would sound great.

The 12" high fidelity in a 2.0 ft^3 enclosure (sealed) would require a 10db boost at 20hz with a "Q" of 2.00 to have a relatively flat response (to 21hz). Keep in mind, that is figuring response in an anechoic environment.

The 15" version of the high fidelity woofer works in essentially the same enclosure with the same amount of boost from the EQ. I am lacking a couple of parameters. With a couple more filled in I could get a bit more accurate results.

The issue I see with this scenario is that I am not sure how the woofer will handle the added boost at such a low frequency. It is not an "xmax king" by any means. It is quite standard in that department. That being the case, IF sealed has to be done, I feel the TC sounds woofers would work better. However for accuracy and sound quality I think the Dayton's in low tuned ported enclosures would be superb.

As for the Titanic MKIII it sounds quite good. I would recommend a x-over point of near 60hz though with an 18db/oct. filter. It sounded a bit boomy compared to my SVS PB-12 Ultra. However for the difference in price it sounded very good. In my parents house it sounds very good. They have some Emphasys 8" in-wall speakers as well as matching center and rears. They work very well in conjunction with this sub. It sounds great. I was impressed with the performance for the money. The sub plays very deep and completely energizes the room (3,800 ft^3 or so).

One thing I have noticed with 15" subs (in general) is that the x-over point is very critical as is the rolloff. Because they have so much additional surface area, they can really amplify higher frequencies causing "boominess". As I stated earlier, I would use, at minimum, an 18db/oct. filter at around 60hz. You can go higher but you will need to use a steeper slope. This is based upon my listening preferences. In your scenario, this may play to your vices.

 

[speakerman39]

Without hearing the High fidelity subs in person, yet, I realyy cannot comment on them. However, based upon the ported response chart for the 12" I would think that they would sound great.

The 12" high fidelity in a 2.0 ft^3 enclosure (sealed) would require a 10db boost at 20hz with a "Q" of 2.00 to have a relatively flat response (to 21hz). Keep in mind, that is figuring response in an anechoic environment.

The 15" version of the high fidelity woofer works in essentially the same enclosure with the same amount of boost from the EQ. I am lacking a couple of parameters. With a couple more filled in I could get a bit more accurate results.

The issue I see with this scenario is that I am not sure how the woofer will handle the added boost at such a low frequency. It is not an "xmax king" by any means. It is quite standard in that department. That being the case, IF sealed has to be done, I feel the TC sounds woofers would work better. However for accuracy and sound quality I think the Dayton's in low tuned ported enclosures would be superb.

As for the Titanic MKIII it sounds quite good. I would recommend a x-over point of near 60hz though with an 18db/oct. filter. It sounded a bit boomy compared to my SVS PB-12 Ultra. However for the difference in price it sounded very good. In my parents house it sounds very good. They have some Emphasys 8" in-wall speakers as well as matching center and rears. They work very well in conjunction with this sub. It sounds great. I was impressed with the performance for the money. The sub plays very deep and completely energizes the room (3,800 ft^3 or so).

One thing I have noticed with 15" subs (in general) is that the x-over point is very critical as is the rolloff. Because they have so much additional surface area, they can really amplify higher frequencies causing "boominess". As I stated earlier, I would use, at minimum, an 18db/oct. filter at around 60hz. You can go higher but you will need to use a steeper slope. This is based upon my listening preferences. In your scenario, this may play to your vices.

Really apprecaite all the sueful data. I will look into the TC Sounds 1000 when their website is up and running. Been down for a few days now. Not sure which way I am going to go BUT sealed is a definite and musicality is crucial for my project.

 

[annunaki]

Sounds like a good plan BUT is a bit out of my budget. Really dont think I need all that either. But, I will keep it in mind. Thanks for your help.

$688.00 for the twin TC Sounds woofers and an EP2500 would blow your mind. It is not that much out of your budget. Start with one and add one later. Especially adding the EQ down the road.

You could just start with one and the EP2500 for $519.00, then add another for $169.00 later on and then add the EQ. This would work excellent for sealed applications.

The ported system I told you about earlier (for the 12" high fidelity woofers from Dayton) would not be that hard to construct. Port noise should be a non issue with 2-3" ports (using aero ports). 3 three inch ports could be done to ensure no port noise. It will make them a bit longer but it would work. In terms of musicality, I believe it would be a stellar performer. All the right ingredients are there on paper and in the model response plots. Not to mention the base line response is excellent and the EQ could be used strictly to correct room interactions rather than be used just to generate the response desired.

If you send me a PM with your email address I can attach some files that show the response for different woofers in a given enclosure.

 

[speakerman39]

annunaki I really appreciate your advice. When it comes down to me actually making a decision I will keep your recommendations in mind. However, it may be a while before I get the funds together as my budget is very tight right now. Thanks once again.