Newbie in Need of Advice - Bookshelf Speakers on a Limited Budget

[zumbo]

^^^ That looks really good. I'll have to go audition the CR67s @ CC ASAP!

Thanks, zumbo.

The speakers I posted in the link were 77's, not 67's.

 

[ivanolo]

I know, zumbo, but I have no way of auditioning them, so I'll just have to listen to the next best thing, which are the CR67s @ CC. The chances are good that, if I like them, I'll like the next model in line, right?

 

[gus6464]

I know, zumbo, but I have no way of auditioning them, so I'll just have to listen to the next best thing, which are the CR67s @ CC. The chances are good that, if I like them, I'll like the next model in line, right?

That's not always necessarily true. I remember a couple of months back listening to the Paradigm Studio 60 and 100 and I liked the 60's a lot better than the 100's.

 

[ivanolo]

Well, shoot! Given my limited budget and few choices, which speakers would you recommend, the BA CR67s, the Polk M10s, or the M30s? And, how would I go about placing them?

 

[gus6464]

Well, shoot! Given my limited budget and few choices, which speakers would you recommend, the BA CR67s, the Polk M10s, or the M30s? And, how would I go about placing them?

Here is a sweet deal on some speakers better than all the ones you have mentioned.

Polk RTi4 $175/pair
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product_Id=3724550&JRSource=googlebase.datafeed.POK+RTI4-BK

Go to a Fry's and check them out, they carry the entire polk line.

And if you can increase your budget by $50 you can get the RTi6 for $250
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3724530

Whichever you pick I would consider an excellent choice for your budget considering they are worth 2x the price.

 

[corebreach]

I'm in the same boat as ivanolo, it's the primary reason I joined these forums.

I listened to the Polk RTi4s the other day at Fry's (with my own test music so I'm familiar with how the songs sound). Maybe I'm just used to my "cube" 2.1 setup (part of an older Cambridge Soundworks DTT2500 system) but there was something about the Polks, and indeed the other bookshelf speakers I demo'd, that sounded 'off'. The speakers sounded less in control of the audio coming out of them, scattered or "boomy" if that makes any sense. Other than that they sounded quite good, although I'm spoiled by my friend's ginormous Martin Logan and PMC setups, an unrealistic benchmark for my current budget.

One further thing: Does the particular receiver/amp matter that much beyond the impedance and wattage ratings? I've heard that most modern receivers are pretty much the same in terms of how well they drive speakers at their rated values. Is this true?

 

[Vin2.1guy]

I listened to the Polk RTi4s the other day at Fry's (with my own test music so I'm familiar with how the songs sound). Maybe I'm just used to my "cube" 2.1 setup (part of an older Cambridge Soundworks DTT2500 system) but there was something about the Polks, and indeed the other bookshelf speakers I demo'd, that sounded 'off'. The speakers sounded less in control of the audio coming out of them, scattered or "boomy" if that makes any sense.

I'm no fan of Polks, JBL's, Infinities, BOSE etc., they all seem like "big box" store cheapo brands to me (no matter how much they cost, it's just over inflated prices that don't match the lower quality of other speaker's for the price, like all the great internet direct sellers these days).

I've owned budget JBL's and though they did their job for me when I was a teen (rocked out) they sounded so flat and just "blah". I also had a pair of Infinity bookshelves that while somewhat refined, were so colored, so warm and bloated in the mid-range. With Polks, I don't even think they even sound good enough in the store (yea, all speaker's sound bad in stores, but other brands at least sounded decent to me) in order for me to want to take them home and try them out. They sound hollow and tinny (though not harsh) and totally out of control with no real soundstage or depth to me. All these brands definitely sound "off" to me as well. Jmo though.

About a receiver's/amp's power: It's complicated. I don't know enough about it, but I think that most speaker's actually only need a few wpc to push them (that's why there are those small portable solid state or tube amps that only put out about 15 wpc and yet can be very expensive and push many speakers just fine) the rest are just there for the peaks in the music or if you want to push them to insanely loud levels without distortion. I think anything around 50 wpc is more than enough for a 8ohm fairly effiecient speaker (86 to 89 sensitivity). There is definitely more to a components output than just raw wpc channel anyway, like the quality of it's parts, the way it handles or channels power (the voltage it takes in from the wall), and its effeciency. There is a thread about all of this here (it deals with vintage receivers/amps but addresses all related topics) :

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=121251

 

[gus6464]

I'm no fan of Polks, JBL's, Infinities, BOSE etc., they all seem like "big box" store cheapo brands to me (no matter how much they cost, it's just over inflated prices that don't match the lower quality of other speaker's for the price, like all the great internet direct sellers these days).

I've owned budget JBL's and though they did their job for me when I was a teen (rocked out) they sounded so flat and just "blah". I also had a pair of Infinity bookshelves that while somewhat refined, were so colored, so warm and bloated in the mid-range. With Polks, I don't even think they even sound good enough in the store (yea, all speaker's sound bad in stores, but other brands at least sounded decent to me) in order for me to want to take them home and try them out. They sound hollow and tinny (though not harsh) and totally out of control with no real soundstage or depth to me. All these brands definitely sound "off" to me as well. Jmo though.

About a receiver's/amp's power: It's complicated. I don't know enough about it, but I think that most speaker's actually only need a few wpc to push them (that's why there are those small portable solid state or tube amps that only put out about 15 wpc and yet can be very expensive and push many speakers just fine) the rest are just there for the peaks in the music or if you want to push them to insanely loud levels without distortion. I think anything around 50 wpc is more than enough for a 8ohm fairly effiecient speaker (86 to 89 sensitivity). There is definitely more to a components output than just raw wpc channel anyway, like the quality of it's parts, the way it handles or channels power (the voltage it takes in from the wall), and its effeciency. There is a thread about all of this here (it deals with vintage receivers/amps but addresses all related topics) :

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=121251

Then I guess you need to tell almost all movie theatres to stop using JBL for their speakers. And I am also sure that these JBL's are pretty crappy as well.

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=K2S9800DG&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA&cat=BFS&ser=K2

 

[ivanolo]

Dude, this is a thread about $200 or less speakers. Obviously, they won't compare to more expensive stuff, and they'll have weaknesses.
Your post was not helpful at all!

 

[gus6464]

Dude, this is a thread about $200 or less speakers. Obviously, they won't compare to more expensive stuff, and they'll have weaknesses.
Your post was not helpful at all!

I was actually referring to the previous poster that was bashing Polk, JBL, and Infinity just because they are sold at big box stores and claims that even they're more expensive products are overpriced crap. Because I am certain if anyone had a very decent budget of $5000+ they would go and buy from ID without even auditioning. ID companies are not the beat all of the audio world.

 

[silversurfer]

ID companies are not the beat all of the audio world.

No company is, but you can not make a valid judgement unless you try them.

There are some very valid reasons business on the internet is increasing every year.

 

[ivanolo]

My post was directed at Vin2.1guy.

 

[Vin2.1guy]

Then I guess you need to tell almost all movie theatres to stop using JBL for their speakers. And I am also sure that these JBL's are pretty crappy as well.

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=K2S9800DG&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA&cat=BFS&ser=K2

I meant no offense, though if movie theaters use JBL's that just reinforces my point. I don't go to a movie expecting good sound, only loud blasting in my ear crap. And that's what I get.

Sure they make $$$ speakers, but if you look around forums like this and professional reviews, no one is going crazy over them, in fact I have yet to see any recommended for bookshelf speakers. I have two pair of JBL bookshelf speakers and I wouldn't recommend them! I bought them when I didn't know any better.

My point was not that they are bad speakers (they're not) just that the price for them and other speaker's that are sold in places like Worst Buy or Shortcut City is over-inflated.

I think JBL used to be good, like in the 70's, then their name got bought out and their quality went downhill since then. It's happened to a lot of companies.

 

[Vin2.1guy]

Dude, this is a thread about $200 or less speakers. Obviously, they won't compare to more expensive stuff, and they'll have weaknesses.
Your post was not helpful at all!

I'm ever so sorry I have not been helpful. I beg forgiveness that my detailed post I wrote right here in this very forum for some great speakers that you could get for $110 shipped was of no use to you:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=293582&postcount=18

That's what I get for trying to help. Won't make that mistake again.

 

[Vin2.1guy]

I was actually referring to the previous poster that was bashing Polk, JBL, and Infinity just because they are sold at big box stores and claims that even they're more expensive products are overpriced crap. Because I am certain if anyone had a very decent budget of $5000+ they would go and buy from ID without even auditioning. ID companies are not the beat all of the audio world.

Ok, I hate to be the one to tell you, but those brands are not considered hi-fi, period. Are they horrible? No, not at all. Are there much better buys from much more serious speaker makers? Of course. But it's your money, waste it as you wish, it keeps the economy going.

And yes indeed, many people order internet direct before hearing speakers at all (though many will try to audition them in an upscaled hi-fi store near them). Why? Because any speaker shopper should know that what a speaker sounds like in a store is very different than what they will sound like in your home with your equipment (especially at some discount electronics store "demo" "room" lol). Even the best demo rooms at upscale audio boutiques will sound nothing like your real world conditions at home. A room and different components changes a speaker's sound immensely. In fact, after the source material (recording of whatever you are playing) and the speakers themselves, the room is the most important factor that determines how your system will sound (components come after). If you put great speakers in a room with a lot of furnishings and angled walls or that has a low ceiling and is open at one end, it's not going to sound as good as it can at the very least. If you put so-so budget speakers into a room that has good acoustics (little refraction) it will sound better than whatever priced speakers you want to throw into a bad sounding room.

So what people have been doing is ordering from ID companies that have a liberal return policy, in effect, auditioning speakers right in their own home, in their own listening environment, with their own equipment before buying (I suppose you could do this with the "big box" stores, but I don't know their return policies on speakers since I wouldn't dare buy from one, let someone else pay all their overhead). Speakers simply must match well with your equipment and your room dynamics and the only way to tell if they do is to audition them in that same environment.

 

[Vin2.1guy]

No company is, but you can not make a valid judgement unless you try them.

There are some very valid reasons business on the internet is increasing every year.

Exactly. I think I need to get some Worst Buy stock, 90% of people will buy there silly HT-in-a-box there for thousands of dollars and expect it to sound good. Meanwhile, savvy consumers will scavenge the internet for great deals on components (I did) and buy from real speaker brands that would never dare have their products available for purchase from such vulgar "big box" stores. Some you can't even get off the internet easily, unless you live in the U.K. lol.

 

[Vin2.1guy]

My post was directed at Vin2.1guy.

And here is a post directed at you:

Can you up your budget to over $200, or even $300? This is really the price mark of where you seperate the crap from very good mid to hi-fi speakers. I've been looking around for bookshelfs for myself in the $300 to $700 range and have decided on some Usher 520's that retail for $400 (which means I can get them for about $300-$350 if I look, and I have found some for this price).

Here's a list of some of the speaker's I have been considering:

Usher S-520 ($400)

Energy RC-10 ($550)

Dana 630 ($349) (4 ohms)

Epos ELS3 ($330)
Epos M5 ($650) (4 ohms)
Epos M12.2

Axiom M3 v2 (Ti) ($330)

Av123 Xls ($230)

Swan Diva 2.1 ($330-$450)
D2.1SE

Era Design Five ($750-$900)
Four ($500-$600)

Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 ($348) Sierra

PSB Alpha B1 Monitor ($279) / B25's ($479) (6ohm)

Paradigm Atom Monitor ($269) / Titan's ($499)

Wharfedale Diamond 9.2

Acarian Alón Li'l Rascal Mk.II

Revel Concerta M12

Some push the $1000 mark, but many are at or below $300-$350 with a few around $200. Every single one is made by a great speaker maker, some very highly regarded. It may be worth your money to just spend $100 more and get a truly good speaker instead of saving that money and getting something you won't be satisified with. That's how I look at it anyway, and although I could spend tens of thousands on a stereo or even just speakers alone (inheritance I recently got helps) I will not, I think that's insane.

Here's a theard on another forum (and a much friendlier one that this!) where there is a speaker comparison between budget bookshelves:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=821009&page=1&pp=30

Lot's of good reading in there and other budget speakers besides the ones that are being compared are mentioned as well.

PS: Excuse me for helping again (if you're too cheap to spend the $$$ then you get what you deserve). I'm out. What a crabby forum this is!

 

[Davemcc]

Then I guess you need to tell almost all movie theatres to stop using JBL for their speakers. And I am also sure that these JBL's are pretty crappy as well.

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=K2S9800DG&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA&cat=BFS&ser=K2

I am going to alert Dolby CP-200 to this thread if you fellas don't play nice.

 

[silversurfer]

The Polk LSi series are suppose to be very good, and apparently available at big box stores.

JBL makes some very high end speakers, and sister company Infinity make some very high end speakers. I read about them all the time, I just have not come across any at local audio shops or big retailers.

 

[gus6464]

Revel is the higher end Infinity, same company.

And then here is a review of the JBL Studio L tower L880 that audioholics did. I should also note that you can get these towers for less than $650 online at this moment. I can't see another pair of towers beat these right now at their current price range.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/jbl-l880

And then you have Mazer which raves about the Polk LSi9 and while I may not share his opinion (I heard them in the worst possible environment so I am certain that they are lot better), he is one of the few in this forum that I trust the most when it comes to speakers.

Also if you ask around here and at avs about Infinity you will get a ton of positive replies about the Beta series which are known to offer great bang for the buck.

ID companies are not the only place where you can get good speakers and affordable prices.