New and stupid...help? :)

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Derrleak

Junior Audioholic
Haha...I got a laugh out of that one. Well I'll look at what Onix systems have to offer and keep looking at the SVS ones. Touching back on the reciever part of the whole system... That Onkyo 605 would probably do me better then the 674? I think I have looked at both, and for some reason settled with the 674, but you guys would know better then me, and I would def go with the 605 if recomended.

[edit] I just saw those pictures of the onix speakers from the 2nd page...didn't see them before. Def some sharp and nice looking speakers but much to large for what I need right now. I think I am going to settle on the SVS system with either the 605 or 674 Onkyo reciever depending on what kind of feed back I get from you guys...just to put this internal debate with myself to rest...for now =P So one of those Onkyo recievers and the SVS system, ya ya?
 
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mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
I just saw those pictures of the onix speakers from the 2nd page...didn't see them before. Def some sharp and nice looking speakers but much to large for what I need right now.
The AV123 bookshelfs aren't that large. Just about an inch, or so large then the SVS's. They also have large drivers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Please go with the SR605!
Why? It has HDMI-1.3, TrueHD, & DTS-MA. The SR674 one has none. So do not even think about the SR-674 model for one second.
The SR-605 is actually $399 w/ Free S/H from J&R Music World.
 
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zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
The AV123 bookshelfs aren't that large. Just about an inch, or so large then the SVS's. They also have large drivers.
AV123 is an excellent choice like the others have mentioned. If the towers are to large for you, then I would recommend going with 5 of these. Total $695 plus shipping. That would leave you $500 of so for a great subwoofer.

AV123 x-cs Center/Main/Surround

http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=91.1

I agree. Either the bookshelf models with a x-cs for the center, or five of the x-cs models.

http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=82.1

http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=91.1
 
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Derrleak

Junior Audioholic
So those onix ones would be significantly better then the SVS's huh? Is there any certain type of stands or wall brackets that would work well with these? I am thinking I will need stands for all the bookshelf speakers and maybe a wall bracket for a center that big...put it above my TV on the wall or something. The SVS just appealed to me because of the style and everything avaiable for them at the website, and because there obviously nice speakers :)
 
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Derrleak

Junior Audioholic
Alright lets say I get 4 bookshelf onix speakers that is posted above, and that center...that makes the total $577, and I already have the Onkyo 605 on order for 400 bucks...so $977. Would a SVS Subwoofer be better then an Onix? I am willing to play around with the 1300-1500 price range, but not wanting to exceed it due to my comfort zone at the moment. I still would need stands and possibly better wires... Guess the wires could wait. Lookin at SVS subs though, the PS10-NSD is $430 bucks, so that would be on the verge of 1500, and easily would go over with stands, and wires. As much as that would probably be really nice, and I could afford just having a hard time wanting to hand the money over...would it be that much better then just that SVS system for 999?
 
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Derrleak

Junior Audioholic
Ouch...150 a pair on the stands... I think I am going to have to go with the SVS system and its stands this time around. From all the help everyone has given me on these forums, which I am incredibly thankful for...I went from buying a bose to learning much more and getting something better for my money it sounds like. From all the people with SVS products, sounds like they are happy :) Thanks for the help again. I plan on sticking around here and further my knowledge with all this stuff because I have a huge interest in it as of recently :D Is there any area included on this website that kind of just educates ya on all the tech terms, etc...? Thanks again everyone! The Onkyo 605, and the SVS system with the PB10 sub will be my first audio setup...which I'm sure will not be a dissipointment if I originally was going to go with a HTIB.
 
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Derrleak

Junior Audioholic
Maybe I'll look for confirmation with that then. I can tell you are still trying to urge the onix speakers ;) I just wouldn't want to order them just to find out it wouldn't work out all that great, or it would be to unbalanced as far as weight goes.

[edit]If heard side by side, would there be that big of a difference between the Onix and SVS speakers? What exactly does a bigger drive mean...Being new to all this, I would assume more sound and thats it...And if that is so, I wouldn't begin to even know how much more that means or quality, etc...
 
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Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
UPDATED

SV
Drivers: Tweeter (1) 1" (25mm) ClearSilkT diaphragm
--------Woofer (1) 5.25" (133mm) polypro. cone
Frequency Response (Anechoic) 68Hz - 20kHz ± 3d
Nominal Impedance 8 ohms
Sensitivity 85dB
Power Handling 20W - 120W

The woofer size in the SV is 5.25". It's frequency response only goes down to 68Hz. The closer we can get to 20Hz, the better the speaker can reproduce low frequencies.

The Sensitivity of the speaker is 85dB. The higher this number, the louder the speaker will be at a given level.

Onix
Drivers: 1" treated fabric dome and custom 6.5" curvilinear shaped treated paper cone woofer with polymer chassis
Frequency Response: 55 Hz to 20 KHz (± 3 dB)
Impedance: 8 Ohms nominal
Efficiency: 87 dB (@ 1 watt / 1 meter)

As you can see, the Onix speaker uses a 6.5" woofer. It's frequency response makes it down to 55Hz. Again, lower is better.

One speaker uses the term "sensitivity", while the other uses "efficiency". In this case, it's meaning is the same thing. While 87dB doesn't seem to be much more than the SV 85dB, understand that a 3dB difference would need half as much power as the other to produce the same level of volume. In other words, these speakers will be almost twice as loud at the same level, compared to the SV bookshelf. Another way to look at it is; your receiver will have to work almost half as hard to drive the Onix speakers to a level you enjoy.(Compared to working harder to drive the SV to the same level)

There is a reason these speakers are on back order. They seem to be the best entry-level bargain around.
 
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Derrleak

Junior Audioholic
Thanks a lot Zumbo, you have helped me so much. Do you sell audio for a living, or just a hobby and know what your talking about? Again thanks a lot. I am looking at the Onix speaker, the 39" towers with that 605 Onkyo reciever and a SVS sub... After everything is said and done it is around 1800...I can afford it but It def goes above what I wanted to spend...the 200+ dollar shipping isn't so cool, haha. Now to fight my finger to click purchase on the SVS and Onix site...ah!
 
OttoMatic

OttoMatic

Senior Audioholic
Hi guys,

UPDATEDThe closer we can get to 20Hz, the better the speaker can reproduce low frequencies.
Low-end extension is definitely a metric in which I'm interested. However, it may or may not be terribly relevant, depending on crossover frequency. That said, I'd usually opt for a 6.5" driver over a 5.25" driver (for that bass extension), but one should really listen to decide.

The Sensitivity of the speaker is 85dB. The higher this number, the louder the speaker will be at a given level.
What this number means exactly is that when fed 1 watt of power, this speaker measured 85 dB at a distance of 1 meter. The other measured 87 dB at 1 meter with 1 watt of power.

Clearly, this is a measurable difference, but I wouldn't make too much out of it. One thing to question -- did either company specify how this was measured? What frequency? Using a broadband noise? etc. I would imagine that this measurement could be tweaked depending on company-internal goals to become either bloated or conservative.

While 87dB doesn't seem to be much more than the SV 85dB, understand that a 3dB difference would need half as much power as the other to produce the same level of volume.
Right. Another way to state this is that for every doubling of power from your amplifier, the speaker will measure 3 dB louder. So, as determined from this spec, you will measure 87 dB with 1 watt of power, 90 dB with 2 W, 93 dB with 4 W, 96 dB with 8 W ... 108 dB with 128 W. The "other" speaker, with a sensitivity of 85 dB, will measure 106 dB with 128 W -- there's still a 2 dB difference between the two from a 1 watt input to a 128 watt input, and all points in between and beyond.

In other words, these speakers will be almost twice as loud at the same level, compared to the SV bookshelf.
Well, what it means that one speaker will be 2 dB louder than the other with a given input power. The 2 dB delta will mean that your amp would have to work not-quite-twice as hard to generate the same output at 1 watt.

Although you will require not-quite-twice as much amplifier power to generate the same SPL from one speaker to the next, the percieved output level (to the human ear) will NOT be "double." I've generally seen numbers like 6 dB to 10 dB where people consider things to be "twice as loud." This is easy to prove to yourself if you have an SPL meter -- simply increase volume until you register a 2 dB increase in measured SPL and you will hear that it's not a doubling in volume as perceived by your ear. Bottom line: a doubling of amplifier power does not translate to a doubling of perceived volume to a human.

Like frequency response cutoffs (the 50 Hz to 20 kHz stff), sensitivity of a speaker is one metric. At 85 dB and 87 dB, I wouldn't consider either of these speakers terribly sensitive to input power.

The Infinity Primus series is a great entry-level speaker that I've heard first hand. I think they're about $80+ each at Amazon. Its frequency response is spec'd at 49 Hz to 20 kHz, and its sensitivity at 90 dB. Of course, I wouldn't base my decisioin on these two criteria alone, but if you did, the Infinity would be "better" than the others in consideration, right?

In the end, I think you'd be happy with any of the above choices. If not, sell 'em and keep on shopping!

Hope that helps a little.
 
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Derrleak

Junior Audioholic
I calculated both "packages" One being the Onkyo reciever with the SVS system and 4 stands. The other one being Onkyo reciever, SVS sub, and Onix speakers. The package with the Onix speakers (The shorter towers, 4 of them) is 200 more. For what I get extra...is it worth the 200? Its the shipping and handling that really ads up when I shop from these multiple venues... I'll purchase the onix towers and center along with the SVS sub if I am getting an awesome deal for 1800 with everything I am soon purchasing.
 
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Derrleak

Junior Audioholic
Hey Otto...in your signature, you have pictures linked to your setup. Is that an LCD TV or a DLP? I was wondering what your purchased to just mount your center just on top of your TV. I own a LCD and am going to have to mount my center above my TV also but if I can purchase a shelf or something that would probably work better...as long as it does not rattle! :mad:
 
OttoMatic

OttoMatic

Senior Audioholic
I am looking at the Onix speaker, the 39" towers with that 605 Onkyo reciever and a SVS sub...
I think you'd do OK with either speaker -- the Onix or the SVS.

However, consider your crossover point -- where will this be? 80 Hz? 60 Hz? What's your usage? Mostly movies? Any music? I've never heard them, but I like the look of the SVS SCS series. Perhaps this is because I've heard other D'Appolito arrays (aka "MTM"), and I've enjoyed the sound. Yes, there is a difference in driver size and low-end extension, but that may or may not matter based on your crossover point.

The package with the Onix speakers (The shorter towers, 4 of them) is 200 more. For what I get extra...is it worth the 200?
It's hard to say if it'd be worth it. I guess you'd have to listen to both to be sure. Let me ask this -- What do you perceive as being "extra" about the Onix?

One note about stands, and this might have already been brought up... You wouldn't need to buy them online. I'm sure you could pick up a pair at Best Buy, etc. I didn't research them in-depth, but there's nothing magical about the stands that are sold "for" a pair of speakers online (well, they may be sized for the bottom of the speaker, or a certain height, but I think you can match those parameters in the store; many stand manufacturers make different heights, etc.). I would probably skip the shipping and buy those locally.

Anyway, some thoughts on speaker combinations and setup...

Is that an LCD TV or a DLP? I was wondering what your purchased to just mount your center just on top of your TV. I own a LCD and am going to have to mount my center above my TV also but if I can purchase a shelf or something that would probably work better...as long as it does not rattle!
Mine is a DLP, so that thing just mounts to the slope in the back of the TV; it wouldn't really work with an LCD. If I had a flat panel TV, I would have to make a shelf for it specifically. You might be able to get something like that at Home Depot or perhaps Best Buy, etc. I'm currently having some speacialty brackets built by a metal worker. These will be used to support my TV to the wall, and I would probably engage in something similar if I need to wall-mount my center channel. Custom brackets aren't really that expensive if you find a guy that will work with you...
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Maybe I'll look for confirmation with that then. I can tell you are still trying to urge the onix speakers ;) I just wouldn't want to order them just to find out it wouldn't work out all that great, or it would be to unbalanced as far as weight goes.

[edit]If heard side by side, would there be that big of a difference between the Onix and SVS speakers? What exactly does a bigger drive mean...Being new to all this, I would assume more sound and thats it...And if that is so, I wouldn't begin to even know how much more that means or quality, etc...
Before you order any speakers, see if it's possible for you to audition them for FREE. If you get the Onix or SVS, can you audition for free, including S/H BOTH WAYS?

Some companies like OUTLAW Audio let you have free S/H to your house to audition, but then you have to pay S/H to RETURN (on some items). Outlaw Audio will NOT take returns on any cables either, which is ridiculous since they are not custom made. By the way, read The Audio Critic and you will learn A LOT. In fact, don't buy anything yet until you have read some articles in The Audio Critic. It's FREE.
http://theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Back_Issues/

A lot of speakers will sound differently in different rooms. For example, just because my Definitive Technology speakers sound AWESOME in my room, does not mean they will sound the same in your room.

For speaker cables, I recommend Blue Jeans Cables. For interconnects, I recommend Monoprice.com. Bottom line, don't put too much stock into cables and wires.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I calculated both "packages" One being the Onkyo reciever with the SVS system and 4 stands. The other one being Onkyo reciever, SVS sub, and Onix speakers. The package with the Onix speakers (The shorter towers, 4 of them) is 200 more. For what I get extra...is it worth the 200? Its the shipping and handling that really ads up when I shop from these multiple venues... I'll purchase the onix towers and center along with the SVS sub if I am getting an awesome deal for 1800 with everything I am soon purchasing.
If you can find a dealer near you, you might want to ask them for a free home audition---like a 30 day return policy with no restocking fee.

Another system you might take a glance at is the Def Tech ProCinema 1000, which is $1,400 for a 5.1 HT System if you go with the ProCenter 2000, instead of the ProCenter 1000 (S/H included).
http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/procinema/procinema_1000.html
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Low-end extension is definitely a metric in which I'm interested. However, it may or may not be terribly relevant, depending on crossover frequency. That said, I'd usually opt for a 6.5" driver over a 5.25" driver (for that bass extension), but one should really listen to decide.
Seeing as how the 5.25" SV only makes it to 68 is pushing it for even a 80Hz cross over point.


What this number means exactly is that when fed 1 watt of power, this speaker measured 85 dB at a distance of 1 meter. The other measured 87 dB at 1 meter with 1 watt of power.
Considering the level of which the OP's question was, I wasn't going to go too far. Heck, you know you know more about the tec specs than I do. Just trying to give a general idea.

Clearly, this is a measurable difference, but I wouldn't make too much out of it. One thing to question -- did either company specify how this was measured? What frequency? Using a broadband noise? etc. I would imagine that this measurement could be tweaked depending on company-internal goals to become either bloated or conservative.
When one speaker has the other beat in the driver size, sensitivity, and frequency response, it's part of it.


Right. Another way to state this is that for every doubling of power from your amplifier, the speaker will measure 3 dB louder. So, as determined from this spec, you will measure 87 dB with 1 watt of power, 90 dB with 2 W, 93 dB with 4 W, 96 dB with 8 W ... 108 dB with 128 W. The "other" speaker, with a sensitivity of 85 dB, will measure 106 dB with 128 W -- there's still a 2 dB difference between the two from a 1 watt input to a 128 watt input, and all points in between and beyond.
Great explanation! If not too much for a newbie.

Well, what it means that one speaker will be 2 dB louder than the other with a given input power. The 2 dB delta will mean that your amp would have to work not-quite-twice as hard to generate the same output at 1 watt.
Yep. The amp will not have to work as hard driving the speakers in this comparison with larger drivers, and better frequency response.

Although you will require not-quite-twice as much amplifier power to generate the same SPL from one speaker to the next, the percieved output level (to the human ear) will NOT be "double." I've generally seen numbers like 6 dB to 10 dB where people consider things to be "twice as loud." This is easy to prove to yourself if you have an SPL meter -- simply increase volume until you register a 2 dB increase in measured SPL and you will hear that it's not a doubling in volume as perceived by your ear. Bottom line: a doubling of amplifier power does not translate to a doubling of perceived volume to a human.
Give me the one that has the better FR, sensitivity, and driver size.;)

Like frequency response cutoffs (the 50 Hz to 20 kHz stff), sensitivity of a speaker is one metric. At 85 dB and 87 dB, I wouldn't consider either of these speakers terribly sensitive to input power.
Agreed. But that is what we are working with.

The Infinity Primus series is a great entry-level speaker that I've heard first hand. I think they're about $80+ each at Amazon. Its frequency response is spec'd at 49 Hz to 20 kHz, and its sensitivity at 90 dB. Of course, I wouldn't base my decisioin on these two criteria alone, but if you did, the Infinity would be "better" than the others in consideration, right?
I would consider it to be better specs, and a better price. But, the specs for the matching center is not so impressive.

In the end, I think you'd be happy with any of the above choices. If not, sell 'em and keep on shopping!

Hope that helps a little.
You know they will get sold. That's the way this works.:D
 
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