Would a too powerful sub for quiet music degrade sound quality?

[dohanc]

Due to this forums overwhelming love for the HSU subs, I've decided to look at primarily the VTF-3 but also keeping in mind the VTF-2.

My needs for the sub are a bit different than most users here. I am probably 80% music and 20% HT. Music is also generally about -35dB with my Yamaha RX-V1500 receiver and B&W 602s. In other words, I'm not a loud listener as I almost always have "background" music on and like to be able to confortable talk above it. Granted this is a tiny 10x10 bedroom and I'm about to move into a 21' x 22.5' ~ 3500^3 room (with some sloped ceilings) fully open to a 6ft x 10ft hallway. Therefore the volume is expected to edge up slightly.

Now of course, I also turn up the music once in a while and am ready to start to get into some HT. So my question is, would the smaller VTF-2 that HSU claims is better for "large" instead of "huge" rooms actually sound better than the larger VTF-3 at low volumes? If not, then I'll just get the VTF-3 and be sure to never run out of headroom.

Also the answer to this particular question may be answered by knowing if the driver used in these two enclosures are the exact same? If so, then they only change the amp and change the enclosure size slightly. This would indicate it wouldn't matter at low listening volumes since the driver would still be moving exactly the same.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Due to this forums overwhelming love for the HSU subs, I've decided to look at primarily the VTF-3 but also keeping in mind the VTF-2.

My needs for the sub are a bit different than most users here. I am probably 80% music and 20% HT. Music is also generally about -35dB with my Yamaha RX-V1500 receiver and B&W 602s. In other words, I'm not a loud listener as I almost always have "background" music on and like to be able to confortable talk above it. Granted this is a tiny 10x10 bedroom and I'm about to move into a 21' x 22.5' ~ 3500^3 room (with some sloped ceilings) fully open to a 6ft x 10ft hallway. Therefore the volume is expected to edge up slightly.

Now of course, I also turn up the music once in a while and am ready to start to get into some HT. So my question is, would the smaller VTF-2 that HSU claims is better for "large" instead of "huge" rooms actually sound better than the larger VTF-3 at low volumes? If not, then I'll just get the VTF-3 and be sure to never run out of headroom.

Also the answer to this particular question may be answered by knowing if the driver used in these two enclosures are the exact same? If so, then they only change the amp and change the enclosure size slightly. This would indicate it wouldn't matter at low listening volumes since the driver would still be moving exactly the same.

A powerful sub can play softly as well. You level match it properly and you should not have any problems.

 

[speakerman39]

Due to this forums overwhelming love for the HSU subs, I've decided to look at primarily the VTF-3 but also keeping in mind the VTF-2.

My needs for the sub are a bit different than most users here. I am probably 80% music and 20% HT. Music is also generally about -35dB with my Yamaha RX-V1500 receiver and B&W 602s. In other words, I'm not a loud listener as I almost always have "background" music on and like to be able to confortable talk above it. Granted this is a tiny 10x10 bedroom and I'm about to move into a 21' x 22.5' ~ 3500^3 room (with some sloped ceilings) fully open to a 6ft x 10ft hallway. Therefore the volume is expected to edge up slightly.

Now of course, I also turn up the music once in a while and am ready to start to get into some HT. So my question is, would the smaller VTF-2 that HSU claims is better for "large" instead of "huge" rooms actually sound better than the larger VTF-3 at low volumes? If not, then I'll just get the VTF-3 and be sure to never run out of headroom.

Also the answer to this particular question may be answered by knowing if the driver used in these two enclosures are the exact same? If so, then they only change the amp and change the enclosure size slightly. This would indicate it wouldn't matter at low listening volumes since the driver would still be moving exactly the same.

Well, I subscribe to the thought that "you can never have too much power" philosophy somewhat. It is a good idea to have more power than you really need because it will play cleaner at all volumes when compared to a less powerful sub . If you play it at lower levels well then kudos to you. Chances are the sub will play very cleanly and last a very long time. Also, the room you are planning to move to is HUGE. The sloped ceilings and outlets to other rooms are a clear sign you will need more power than what you are use to having in order to play at that specific level. Anyways, those are a few of my thoughts as I am by no means an expert. But, I have learned a few things especially here on this as well as other forums. Hope this helps. Good luck in your decision.

 

[Ryan8886]

That's a pretty large space you're going to be working with there. As long as you've got your sub dialed in with your speakers, there should be no overall volume issues. Hsu, SVS and Onix are all well regarded around here. The Hsu generally gets the nod for musicality over H/T, so based on your listening habits, it sounds like you've researched your purchase well. Based on that large space, I'd play it safe and spend the extra scratch on the VTF-3.....you can always dial it down but it's sure a drag if you don't have enough amp to turn it up.

 

[dohanc]

Ok, sounds good. I guess its the same thing with my regular speakers, its not like the woofers are visibily moving and they sound just as good. I remember just having an old Infinity car sub where I was convinced the volume of the sub was very non-linear compared to the volume. I guess this could have easily been the very high ambient noise level.

I orginally thought the room was very big, but according to hsuresearch its not! Look at their recommendation chart:

http://www.hsuresearch.com/images/powerLevelChart.jpg
Small Rooms: Up to 1500 ft^3
Medium Rooms: Up to 3000 ft^3
Large Rooms: Up to 4500 ft^3 (VTF-2)
Huge Rooms: Up to 6000 ft^3 (VTF-3)

So VTF-3 it is. Thanks. Now I have to decide whether the turbo is worth it. My other experience with my not so great car sub was that it went very low in frequency. But it tended to lack the fast "punch" up around 60-80 hertz for kickdrums. I'm worried the turbo may also produce somewhat of the same result? Any thoughts?

 

[speakerman39]

Ok, sounds good. I guess its the same thing with my regular speakers, its not like the woofers are visibily moving and they sound just as good. I remember just having an old Infinity car sub where I was convinced the volume of the sub was very non-linear compared to the volume. I guess this could have easily been the very high ambient noise level.

I orginally thought the room was very big, but according to hsuresearch its not! Look at their recommendation chart:

http://www.hsuresearch.com/images/powerLevelChart.jpg
Small Rooms: Up to 1500 ft^3
Medium Rooms: Up to 3000 ft^3
Large Rooms: Up to 4500 ft^3 (VTF-2)
Huge Rooms: Up to 6000 ft^3 (VTF-3)

So VTF-3 it is. Thanks. Now I have to decide whether the turbo is worth it. My other experience with my not so great car sub was that it went very low in frequency. But it tended to lack the fast "punch" up around 60-80 hertz for kickdrums. I'm worried the turbo may also produce somewhat of the same result? Any thoughts?

Well, sometimes it is NOT just the size of the room BUT how it is layed-out that matters. In your case, the room is rather large not to mention sloped ceilings and opening to another room. As Ryan stated above, it would really suck if you decided to turn things up a bit and be limited by not having much power. I, like you, dont need to play at reference levels BUT it is good to know you can if YOU ever decide to. Anyways, it is good to see you are really doing your homework so as to make a well informed decision. Keep doing what you are doing and sooner OR later you are bound to make the right choice. Just remember, buy what works for YOU and dont get too caught up in buying what others want you to buy. Sometimes, people have a need to justify their own purposes. Good luck in your decision. Let us know what you decide. Have a great day.

 

[Nick250]

A word of caution, If you buy a sub with "auto on", quiet music may never turn it on. I have a Hsu VTF-2 and a Rocket UFW-10 and that is a problem with both. I have tinkered with the settings so the sub gets a stronger signal, but it still is not enough of over come the auto on with quiet music. Why the heck the sub manufactures don't make an auto on over ride is a mystery to me.

 

[Adam]

A word of caution, If you buy a sub with "auto on", quiet music may never turn it on. I have a Hsu VTF-2 and a Rocket UFW-10 and that is a problem with both. I have tinkered with the settings so the sub gets a stronger signal, but it still is not enough of over come the auto on with quiet music. Why the heck the sub manufactures don't make an auto on over ride is a mystery to me.

Agreed! I have the same issue. I don't know about the Hsu subs, but my B&W can be set to simply be on (in addition to being set to auto on). If your new sub is constantly turning on...then off...then on during music or movies, or doesn't turn on at all during quiet music, there's two things that I'd suggest. First, try what Nick mention - namely, turn the signal strength up on the receiver (set the sub channel to +XdB, where X is just a number) and turn the volume of the sub amp down to compensate. Second, you can turn the sub to just be on during those times when you're playing quiet music - provided that the Hsu has that feature.

 

[j_garcia]

If your sub turns off and it has dual inputs, use a Y splitter and feed both of them. This is what HSU recommended on their forums. That means the voltage output from your receiver is lower than what the sub wants. That may mean your receiver may have a low preamp output voltage or the sub's amp is sensitive to the input voltage it needs.

There is no such thing as a sub that is "too powerful" period. With your system calibrated, everything should be blended so that it is all balanced and sounds correct.

 

[Gimpy Ric]

So VTF-3 it is. Thanks. Now I have to decide whether the turbo is worth it. My other experience with my not so great car sub was that it went very low in frequency. But it tended to lack the fast "punch" up around 60-80 hertz for kickdrums. I'm worried the turbo may also produce somewhat of the same result? Any thoughts?

If you buy the sub and turbo together, the turbo is only $99.00, but bought later the turbo is $199.00.

I've got the VTF-3 HO Turbo in my bedroom, and it's not to big, and the extra headroom is great when watching movies.

I'm like you, I listen to music at around 75-80 db's most of the day, while I do my computer work. So I'm 75% music, 25% movies.

 

[dem beats]

If your sub turns off and it has dual inputs, use a Y splitter and feed both of them. This is what HSU recommended on their forums. That means the voltage output from your receiver is lower than what the sub wants. That may mean your receiver may have a low preamp output voltage or the sub's amp is sensitive to the input voltage it needs.

There is no such thing as a sub that is "too powerful" period. With your system calibrated, everything should be blended so that it is all balanced and sounds correct.

I second this. You can never ever have too much clearance for deeper notes. This is epitome of diminishing value. Never looked as that because it's either bass head, or "I listen to soft music etc".

Low hz is the hardest sound to reproduce clean. Think this. to make the sound of a building falling... it take this gigantic building to fall to make that bass. You're itty bitty quad 18" would struggle to make the ground throb as it should right?


Anyway that's extreme but taking a bit of the low off your mains never hurts either. in my case as my sub isn't verry musical and my speakers go down to 60hz pretty well, I just skip the sub unless it's bass heavy music. After my new dual 18" in a 50+ cube box things may be different. you can only pick 2 of the 3 things when it comes to the rules in bass 1) effecient 2)bass extension(low hz) 3) size(small size). well I refuse to give up low hz with high SPL so you I will go with a Giant monolith for the bass gods with tons of juice to it. I probably won't use the depth it can reach but rarely.... but that makes all the difference in the world when it comes to sound.

It's a ballancing act, and you have to pick what is important to you. And remember physics apply.

I am 90% HT at the moment and obsessed with it actualy... this is then #1 thing for HT. Unless you watch romantic comedeys, and hate action and sci fi the sub's job is the most important as it creates the feel in a movie. In scary movies... there is a low tone almost every time the bad guy is lurking... etc.

for music it's that sub tone in your belly that makes rock rock and what not, but again they aren't creating sounds too much below 60-50 hz. Pipe organs aside.

This is just my opinion but I can nearly garuntee you will be happy with a sub which you may currently consider "too much" especialy if you like action movies...

I would even ventuire most folks get such a kick out of bass when they put in an action movie.. they look at that sub portion of the receiver and run it just a few DeeBeez hot.

 

[Nick250]

If your sub turns off and it has dual inputs, use a Y splitter and feed both of them. This is what HSU recommended on their forums. That means the voltage output from your receiver is lower than what the sub wants. That may mean your receiver may have a low preamp output voltage or the sub's amp is sensitive to the input voltage it needs.

I have tried that on the Hsu without success, but it's six years old so it may not be representative of the current batch of subs. I will have to give it a try on the Rocket.

Nick

 

[j_garcia]

I had that problem with my VTF-2 Mk1 and that solved it for me. I would have said maybe there is something wrong with the amp, but the fact that you have two that do the same thing suggests it is something else. What happens if you use the regular preamp outs?

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

Well, I subscribe to the thought that "you can never have too much power" philosophy somewhat. It is a good idea to have more power than you really need because it will play cleaner at all volumes when compared to a less powerful sub . If you play it at lower levels well then kudos to you. Chances are the sub will play very cleanly and last a very long time. Also, the room you are planning to move to is HUGE. The sloped ceilings and outlets to other rooms are a clear sign you will need more power than what you are use to having in order to play at that specific level. Anyways, those are a few of my thoughts as I am by no means an expert. But, I have learned a few things especially here on this as well as other forums. Hope this helps. Good luck in your decision.

Dont get too hung up on wattage, etc, etc, etc.... You should also not confuse loudness with power, or power with performance because any cheap low-performance subwoofer can be calibrated to be too loud.

So when you ask "Can you have too much power?"..... if you mean loudness, then the answer is yes because any subwoofer can be improperly turned too loud. The end result is that it won't blend in....and it will drown out the rest of the soundtrack.

If you're asking..."can you have too much performance"......the answer is no. Performance is key because a more capable subwoofer will outperform a lesser subwoofer in any room.....and at any volume. You should buy as much performance as you can afford.

All too often........people suggest a small low performance subwoofer to forum members because of something as irrelevant as room dimensions. The question of..... "Should you settle for less performance because your room is "X-square feet?" Well..... the answer to that question is a resounding......of course NOT

So when someone suggests... "Since your room is only "X-big", you only need this little low performance sub"....you should shrug it off because they're leading you unnecessarily down the road of low-performance. Why settle for an inferior sub because of something as trivial as room size? The only performance limitation should be your budget.

 

[j_garcia]

I agree with what Buckeye_nut is saying, however it is usually a budgetary reason for recommending what will work in a given room. If you are limited by what you can spend, then the only option may be a smaller, less powerful sub, even if it isn't the best option. I usually try to tell people to stretch the budget within reason to get a good sub because it is rare that anyone would ever regret it.

 

[dohanc]

Picking the title to explain my question was difficult. I would still think that at some small level, the frequency response must change at low power levels. The cone becomes stiff compared to the millivolts driving it. Perhaps the cone is able to react more efficiently at 80 hz than 40 hz and the 80Hz makes it through while the 40 hz doesn't have enough power to move the cone and the attentuation ends up being more than at a normal listening level. BTW, the 40hz, 80hz may be opposite due to the resonsonance of the cone.

While I still think this may end up being technically true (still I'm guessing), it probably doesn't matter. I realized listening to music last night, at such low levels - I don't care if the sub is on. I think when I need to hear the sub, it will be at a sufficient level. Although there still is a huge difference between what the sub has to do (Sound Pressure wise) compared to loud music and relatively quiet HT!

 

[dem beats]

Buckeye has it defined. Low HZ SQ.

X2 his comments.

I'm suprized about your comment about the sub. I would say your speakers at xovered real real low or your sub is muddy like mine

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

Would a too powerful sub for quiet music degrade sound quality?

In a way, the above question can be construed to be asking more of a calibration question than anything else. Yes, any sub can be turned too loud relative to the rest of the soundtrack, and yes... it will degrade the listening experience.

With proper calibration, any subwoofer will output at the precise SPL levels necessary to completely blend-in with the other speakers as intended by the producer of the source material. A properly calibrated $500 subwoofer will be playing at the same loudness as a $5,000 subwoofer as part of any given surround sound system where the other components are the same. However, the $5,000 subwoofer will sound much better because it will deliver much, much more quality and performance. The better subwoofer will effortlessly hit notes the lesser subwoofer could never attempt, and it will do so in a much more effortless, refined and impressive kind of way.

 

[speakerman39]

Dont get too hung up on wattage, etc, etc, etc.... You should also not confuse loudness with power, or power with performance because any cheap low-performance subwoofer can be calibrated to be too loud.

So when you ask "Can you have too much power?"..... if you mean loudness, then the answer is yes because any subwoofer can be improperly turned too loud. The end result is that it won't blend in....and it will drown out the rest of the soundtrack.

If you're asking..."can you have too much performance"......the answer is no. Performance is key because a more capable subwoofer will outperform a lesser subwoofer in any room.....and at any volume. You should buy as much performance as you can afford.

All too often........people suggest a small low performance subwoofer to forum members because of something as irrelevant as room dimensions. The question of..... "Should you settle for less performance because your room is "X-square feet?" Well..... the answer to that question is a resounding......of course NOT

So when someone suggests... "Since your room is only "X-big", you only need this little low performance sub"....you should shrug it off because they're leading you unnecessarily down the road of low-performance. Why settle for an inferior sub because of something as trivial as room size? The only performance limitation should be your budget.

Hello Buckeye point well taken. I believe it is always best to get the most performance for your buck. However, I am not implying the more money you spend the more or better performance you will obtain. Given what the OP was asking it is imho to get the more expensive sub due to the size of the room he will be moving too in the very near future.

 

[Pyrrho]

A word of caution, If you buy a sub with "auto on", quiet music may never turn it on. I have a Hsu VTF-2 and a Rocket UFW-10 and that is a problem with both. I have tinkered with the settings so the sub gets a stronger signal, but it still is not enough of over come the auto on with quiet music. Why the heck the sub manufactures don't make an auto on over ride is a mystery to me.

The solution to the problem is to buy unpowered subwoofers, use a separate power amp, and an automatic switched outlet strip, such as:

http://www.smarthomeusa.com/Shop/Smart-Energy/Smart-Strip/Item/SCG3/specifications/

where one plugs in one's receiver or preamp into the "control outlet", and the subwoofer power amp into one of the automatically switching outlets. It works great. I know, I am using one of these strips with the power amp for my SVS CS-Ultra subwoofers.

Those stupid auto signal sensing things are not a good idea, as it must turn on only AFTER the music starts. And then, as you say, they shut off if the music is quiet for an extended period (or with a subwoofer only signal, if there is no deep bass for a while). With the setup I suggest, it turns on as soon as the receiver or preamp turns on, and turns off only when the receiver or preamp is shut off. So it does exactly what it should do, unlike those stupid signal sensing automatic on circuits.

There are other advantages to doing things this way. Since the amplifier is not built into the subwoofer cabinet, it is not vibrated so much, so it is less likely to fail. And if it ever does fail, it is easier to replace with something else. I do not plan on ever getting another subwoofer with a built in amp. In my opinion, it is just asking for trouble.