WHY are front projectors so expensive?

TABCON

TABCON

Audioholic
I really don't get it. I mean I can appreciate a fine lens like the kind Zeiss
might make for certain medical applications, or if the components have to be solid gold or something, but what makes some projectors so damn expensive?
Most seem to have the same basic configuration and components, a lens, some
TI chips or the equivalent, and the rest of the stuff that makes them operate.

What get's me are the HUGE price swings between makes and models. While some can be had for less than a grand, others cost as much as a small home.
Seeing the difference between a $750 unit and a $10,000 isn't a big deal, but can the human eye actually see the difference between a $15,000 unit and a $100,000 unit, or is it just snob appeal.

I've been considering trading in my Sim2 300E- Link for the new Sim Domino 80-1080p. I'd be paying almost half as much as the 300 originally sold for and and supposedly getting a better picture. Does one really need to spend 25k or more to get a really 'fine' picture?

Sorry, I just don't get it. TV's don't have price swings like this, nor do high end camera's....so what's with the projector market? Is it merely a case of build it and they will come? Are the separate components and electronics involved really that diverse in cost?

Tabcon
 
jcPanny

jcPanny

Audioholic Ninja
1080p projectors

Check out the reviews on projector central on the new 1080p models in the $3-6k price range. I would purchase or demo one of these before making a $25k projector purchase. Yes, on a large screen 1080p will be an upgrade from 720p, but you don't need to spend $25k to get the benefit.

Also an external scaler like the DVDO VP50 should give you the features and performance included in a high end front projector like the SIM.
 
TABCON

TABCON

Audioholic
Check out the reviews on projector central on the new 1080p models in the $3-6k price range. I would purchase or demo one of these before making a $25k projector purchase. Yes, on a large screen 1080p will be an upgrade from 720p, but you don't need to spend $25k to get the benefit.

Also an external scaler like the DVDO VP50 should give you the features and performance included in a high end front projector like the SIM.
You know, you bring up a great point. My Sim 2 has an external scaler that is fantastic. Do you think it would be possible to upgrade the scaler to 1080p? If so, would the projector then be capable of reproducing it?

My original question still stands however...WHY are they so darned expensive???

Tabcon
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
My original question still stands however...WHY are they so darned expensive???

Tabcon
Some of them can give you a 200+" picture. Try that with a plasma and see what it costs. You may need a team of workers to pick it up though.

You can get a nice 720p for around $1k now. 1080p are down to the $3-5k range depending on what model you get. The ones that are $25k-300k are for huge screens. Maybe meant for professionals or commercial use. (or people who just like to spend)
 
D

dem beats

Senior Audioholic
Some of them can give you a 200+" picture. Try that with a plasma and see what it costs. You may need a team of workers to pick it up though.

You can get a nice 720p for around $1k now. 1080p are down to the $3-5k range depending on what model you get. The ones that are $25k-300k are for huge screens. Maybe meant for professionals or commercial use. (or people who just like to spend)


I agree with yoru point but I don't think it applies to the OP.

Projectors cost so much because they can I think. I could be wrong.

I don't think the massive price difference is a product of better part and build. I think it's why dub+6 rims cost so dang much when chrome comes cheep.

I'm not technician, but I think that 90% falls in the middle of the bell curve for quality and it's not going to get you that much farther by spending much more than a few $K

I'm a gun enthusiast and I knwo the lens on those progectors are not as complicated as some current tech used in scopes of today.

just my .02 though I would love to hear the opposite side of my arguement.
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
I agree with yoru point but I don't think it applies to the OP.

Projectors cost so much because they can I think. I could be wrong.

I don't think the massive price difference is a product of better part and build. I think it's why dub+6 rims cost so dang much when chrome comes cheep.

I'm not technician, but I think that 90% falls in the middle of the bell curve for quality and it's not going to get you that much farther by spending much more than a few $K

I'm a gun enthusiast and I knwo the lens on those progectors are not as complicated as some current tech used in scopes of today.

just my .02 though I would love to hear the opposite side of my arguement.

I wish I could give you more of an enlightened opposite side of your argument (let's call it point of view though). I've only had my projectors for about 10 months, so I'm no expert. But I did get a chance to purchase some very high end camera equipment when I worked in research. I remember one order going over $40k for just lenses and accessories (not even a whole camera). Maybe they are not as complicated as a gun, but they sure can cost a lot. The Scientists I was ordering them for absolutely believed that there was a huge difference between a $300 lens and a $3000 lens. Would I be able to see the difference? I don't know. Probably never will get a chance to find out either.

I do know a few people with 150" screens. My $2k projectors wouldn't be able to put out enough light to do that.

Just like there are speakers that cost 1/4 mil. Are they 100 times better than a $2500 set? H.ll no! But they are better.
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
I'm not technician, but I think that 90% falls in the middle of the bell curve for quality and it's not going to get you that much farther by spending much more than a few $K
gmichael:

I think you missed this line in his post. He said the same thing as you. There might be a difference but the difference in quality isn't equivalent to the cost difference.
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
gmichael:

I think you missed this line in his post. He said the same thing as you. There might be a difference but the difference in quality isn't equivalent to the cost difference.
True, but he also said "I would love to hear the opposite side of my arguement."

I was just trying my best. Can't help it if we don't disagree enough.:D
 
D

dem beats

Senior Audioholic
True, but he also said "I would love to hear the opposite side of my arguement."

I was just trying my best. Can't help it if we don't disagree enough.:D
You jerk how dare you have a similar opinion!!! :D

You did mention something raw Lumen(sp) power. I know I would not like my little epson powerlite in a room with any sunlight in there... Heck I blacked out every source of light and close the doors, and add my own ambient lighing instead so it's all controlled. I supose having more "horse power" would be nice. I could then have a projector in the bedroom.. and one in the kitchen.. and in the dining room with drop down screan......

I'm getting goose bumps... lol

I for some reason do see or rather hear the value in better speakers.. I would gladly spend more on speakers, as I have a higher point of diminishing returns for audio aparently than visual. I will have put around $4.5k into the audio when i am done here not including room treatments just speaks recever/amps and sub. But my little epson was only 1200 for the projector plus screan. My only downside is it's not verry bright and doesn't "do" true black black so well... it's grossly apparent in some scenes in finding nemo where it's shades of pitch black, and certain low light films... not all though.

I know if I upgrade it would be for something in the 3.5 k range I bet for a new HD projector but I don't even consider a value in HDMI yet so 1080p is only something that I can't appreciate yet.

For me I like the big size and the PQ is waaaaaay above any movie theater and 90% of the tv's I see... and man GOW is sweet on 80" 's.

:D
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
You jerk how dare you have a similar opinion!!! :D

You did mention something raw Lumen(sp) power. I know I would not like my little epson powerlite in a room with any sunlight in there... Heck I blacked out every source of light and close the doors, and add my own ambient lighing instead so it's all controlled. I supose having more "horse power" would be nice. I could then have a projector in the bedroom.. and one in the kitchen.. and in the dining room with drop down screan......

I'm getting goose bumps... lol

I for some reason do see or rather hear the value in better speakers.. I would gladly spend more on speakers, as I have a higher point of diminishing returns for audio aparently than visual. I will have put around $4.5k into the audio when i am done here not including room treatments just speaks recever/amps and sub. But my little epson was only 1200 for the projector plus screan. My only downside is it's not verry bright and doesn't "do" true black black so well... it's grossly apparent in some scenes in finding nemo where it's shades of pitch black, and certain low light films... not all though.

I know if I upgrade it would be for something in the 3.5 k range I bet for a new HD projector but I don't even consider a value in HDMI yet so 1080p is only something that I can't appreciate yet.

For me I like the big size and the PQ is waaaaaay above any movie theater and 90% of the tv's I see... and man GOW is sweet on 80" 's.

:D
Who you callin' a jerk, jerk? :D I am a certified idiot, and I'd appreciate you calling me by my correct derogatory name.:rolleyes:

I'll probably upgrade someday as well. But right now I'm still in the, "I can't belive how good this looks and sounds" mode.
Speakers would be first on my upgrade list. Love those Mini Stradas over on AV123.
 
D

dem beats

Senior Audioholic
Agreed. when you get that new HUUUUUUUUGE screan from your old little 30" CRT.. wow.

For me.. I did hear something better sounding, so I settled. But I can't afford 20K for speakers. So really in my eyes I got the best sound I could that is upgradable in my book. I'll get those willson watt puppies someday :rolleyes:

Gmike! You should listen to the money python idiot song. It's on of the best try to find it online somewhere if you can. I have no idea retail where it might be found... it's great
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
You know, you bring up a great point. My Sim 2 has an external scaler that is fantastic. Do you think it would be possible to upgrade the scaler to 1080p? If so, would the projector then be capable of reproducing it?

My original question still stands however...WHY are they so darned expensive???

Tabcon
The projector itself needs to be able to display or process a 1080p signal. Not enough just for a scalar to do that. Can the pj handle it, is a question you need to look into call the maker.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I really don't get it. I mean I can appreciate a fine lens like the kind Zeiss
might make for certain medical applications, or if the components have to be solid gold or something, but what makes some projectors so damn expensive?
Most seem to have the same basic configuration and components, a lens, some
TI chips or the equivalent, and the rest of the stuff that makes them operate.
The root of this question lies in the huge variances between the projectors that are available and the technologies that create them. I'm not talking basic technologies, like DLP vs. LCD, but the needs of consumers, vs. specialty applications, vs. computer related growth and development.

When you got your HT300 it was basically at a turning point for projectors and technology. Maybe even a bit after it. The average DLP projector that was HD was running around $10K across the board, and all the related technologies hadn't quite made it into the mass-market field.

Now though, you will find that $100 DVD players are sporting 1080p processing. The chipsets necessary to deal with 10880p - and to do it properly, are becoming commodity items. So, you find projectors that are taking advantage of these cheap chips and pairing them up with cheap lenses, some of which are plastic, and then bottling it all inside a cheap plastic case.

The problem is, all this cheap stuff still looks better than the best of what was available a few years back. Much in the same way that a computer that costs just a few hundred bucks today blows away the $2,000+ systems of just a few years ago. We have seen an incredible increase in the underlying technologies, and a push to mass production of the projectors themselves.

For example, I am working on a high school in our area which is having almost 150 projectors installed in the building. Every student will have a laptop, and every class will be able to project their lessons as the students connect online via wi-fi. Why is it all possible? Because the price of technology has dropped to a point where it is possible.

Does that mean there aren't still $2,000 - or $5,000 ... or more... expensive computers? Of course not! But, you can get by, quite easily, with a lot less.

Now, what do you get for your money in a projector? Across the board you really get more and more of an improvement in every aspect of what you end up purchasing. The bottom line price for 1080p projection sits around $3K. You get a very fine machine for that money, but not DLP. So, you sacrifice a bit on black levels. Step things up to DLP and you are talking about $5K on the cheap side at 1080p. These machines may have good stuff, but may be missing out on top notch video processing and may be paired with a sub-par lens.

Up the lens and processing capabilities a bit and you quickly are at the $10K price point.

From there you really start getting into what I would consider 'exotics'. While just a few years ago exotics ran $25K+ these days they can start under $15K. This is the point where you start seeing minimal imporvements or very specific quality jumps for a fair bit more money. 3-chip DLP, brighter output, short throw lenses, or very long throw, or interchangable lenses which cost a bit more. Throw in capacity for fiber transmission (like your Sim) and things may even cost more.

Yet, it tends to be the processing quality combined with the quality of the lens which makes the biggest difference in the price of the projector and most companies don't care about either. What they want is something that is 'passable' and can be mass marketed. Yet, when companies like Panasonic, who really know their business, are competing against a Sony, who also knows their stuff, you aren't going to get crappy product at the low end... you will find that it is quite acceptable.

The price between other display technologies simply isn't comparible unless you also include the exotics. How about a seamless plasma display? This will run about $8,000 a unit. How about rear projection video wall DLP or LCD displays? Once again, $6,000 or more for a 50" display - each. Outboard video wall processors? These things can run from $5,000+ per unit to $100K or more quite easily.

Best Buy doesn't represent all there is in plasmas and LCDs... or projectors. But, it is far easier for the average consumer to find the variances in projectors than it is to find the variances in lcd and plasma. Why? Because the average consumer doesn't build a custom 7.1 home theater for their 42 to 50 inch plasma. They most definitely DO for their 100"+ front projector. They also, quite often, want to justify the $50,000+ they may spend on the room with a $10,000+ projector.

IMO, under $6K is the right spot for 97%+ of the quality you will ever get in front projection, around $3K gets you quality 99%+ of the world would be thrilled with.
 
B

billnchristy

Senior Audioholic
I paid $1300 for a 32" 720p LCD and $899 for a 720p PJ that can get over 100", how is that expensive?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
One answer is the market share of projectors vs Tv sets. Manufacturing costs per unit decrease with volume, real fast.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
OP could always go for a CRT projector. You know the ones that weigh over 100 pounds and could blind you just by stepping into the room. They have some uber high resolutions, even on the dated ones, that go beyond 1080p.:D Only lacking thing is the HDMI and HDCP compliance, can be rendered with device from over-seas.;):D
 
D

dem beats

Senior Audioholic
OP could always go for a CRT projector. You know the ones that weigh over 100 pounds and could blind you just by stepping into the room. They have some uber high resolutions, even on the dated ones, that go beyond 1080p.:D Only lacking thing is the HDMI and HDCP compliance, can be rendered with device from over-seas.;):D
CRT projectors FTW
 
TABCON

TABCON

Audioholic
The root of this question lies in the huge variances between the projectors that are available and the technologies that create them. I'm not talking basic technologies...
Thank you!

Great post. Very informative...and easy to dance to. I'll give it a 9.5...lol.

I suppose my original question was a little tired, i.e. why do Bentley's cost more than Mazda's, etc. IMO, you absolutely get what you pay for in most instances, but there is a ceiling. From that point, I suppose it's mainly about bragging rights.

When I bought the Sim2 (a demo) the dealer showed it to me alongside one of the high end Epson's. The Epson had a great picture, but no where near the level of the Sim. The price difference for me not a lot since the Sim was a demo, so I opted for the Sim. I still love this projector and when the time comes to upgrade to 1080p or whatever comes next, I'll more than likely get another one.

I've been considering the new Sim Domino 80 DLP, but I think I'll wait a bit longer, probably another year before I make the jump.

Thanks for the great answers everyone.

Tabcon
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
IMO, under $6K is the right spot for 97%+ of the quality you will ever get in front projection, around $3K gets you quality 99%+ of the world would be thrilled with.
Great post!

I tried to give you a green chickie but the system wouldn't let me. It says I don't spread it around enough.:eek:
 
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