davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
Great double blind test! Since you established that the wadia and yba units aren't any better than the cheap system, sell them to me cheaply!
 
A

AdrianMills

Full Audioholic
Since you established that the wadia and yba units aren't any better than the cheap system, sell them to me cheaply!
Acutally it's nothing to do with me - I just came across the link on a Norwegian HiFi forum.

And "better" is a subjective term - things don't necessarily have to sound "better" to be worth more money.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
Wow really,after reading the 10,000 th dbt link im finally ready to sell off my high end collection & jump on the all gear sounds the same bandwagon:rolleyes:
 
B

Buckeye_Nut

Audioholic Field Marshall
Wow really,after reading the 10,000 th dbt link im finally ready to sell off my high end collection & jump on the all gear sounds the same bandwagon:rolleyes:
lol

Not to mention, I wonder if SPLs are taxable in Norway:rolleyes:
 
Tom Andry

Tom Andry

Speaker of the House
There are a lot of things wrong with their methodology but it certainly is nice to see someone give it a good shot. Remember, you can't "prove" no difference, just show that statistically people couldn't show to a significant level that there was a difference or (in statistical terms) you fail to reject the null hypothesis. More reading here.
 
davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
Tom, excellent article, though I admit I skimmed quite a bit. And I am sure clinical researchers and statiticians would scoff at this test, but it sure seemed plausible to me-that the audio philes could not tell consistently the YBA/Wadia from the Sony/Oppo. Most of these endless DBTs seem to come to that conclusion- we can't tell the difference, usually, from 190kbs to 320 kbs, solid state to tubes, hifi to midfi, lamp cord to Nordost Red Dawn, etcetc.

But, like hifihoney, I will not be ditching my $9k rig for a htib!:)
 
Tom Andry

Tom Andry

Speaker of the House
Really the biggest "problem" with their test was that they had so many differences between the setups. Ideally, you'd want to test one component at a time. Since many of their "tweaks" could be affecting the signal for worse (much less for better) you don't really know if they didn't hear a difference because there was no difference or because something in all different equipment offset the potential advantages of some of the other items. Conversely, I'd be making the same exact argument if they did hear a difference because you'd have no way of knowing which individual pieces made the difference. I'm not knocking them, I'm glad they did the test and it makes for an interesting read.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Remember, you can't "prove" no difference, just show that statistically people couldn't show to a significant level that there was a difference or (in statistical terms) you fail to reject the null hypothesis.
Another way to look at DBT is proof by contradiction which is where you assume your hypothesis is true and then work backwards until you either complete the proof or encounter a contradiction. If you have a contradiction, then your hypothesis was false.

Since you can't prove a difference exists, I think looking at it the other way makes even more sense. What I mean is that when listeners listen fully sighted with knowledge of what equipment is playing they often form a preference for one or the other. In other words, they 'know' which one is better.

Now take away the sight and knowledge of which is playing. If your hypothesis that you know which one sounds better is correct then you should be able to pick it out a statistically valid number of times. When you fail to do so (which happens nearly every time in all the DBT tests I've read about over the years), then you have a contradiction. You assumed you knew which one was best and then couldn't prove it; therefore your hypothesis is false and you cannot reliably distinguish between different equipment.
 
A

AdrianMills

Full Audioholic
Really the biggest "problem" with their test was that they had so many differences between the setups. Ideally, you'd want to test one component at a time. Since many of their "tweaks" could be affecting the signal for worse (much less for better) you don't really know if they didn't hear a difference because there was no difference or because something in all different equipment offset the potential advantages of some of the other items. Conversely, I'd be making the same exact argument if they did hear a difference because you'd have no way of knowing which individual pieces made the difference. I'm not knocking them, I'm glad they did the test and it makes for an interesting read.
A semi-audiophile friend of mine was a little taken aback by the results even if it was a crude DBT with some holes in their methodology. I guess the more people see things like this the less people will be taken in by the smoke n mirrors of the audiophool community. Of course there will always be audiophool diehards that refuse to listen to sense like there will always be people that pay to have crystals waved over them.

Love the podcasts btw and you guys should really make them more regularly - how about bi-weekly? :)
 
C

corey

Senior Audioholic
The results seem clear: invest in speakers, not electronics.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
And I am sure clinical researchers and statiticians would scoff at this test...
I am one of those clinical researchers and I have no problem at all with this test. Yes, instead of varying one component at a time, they compared two different systems where nearly everything was different except the speakers. But because they concluded that it was difficult for the listeners to consistently hear differences between the two systems, we don't need tests of individual componets from those systems. So their conclusions were fair and their methods were good enough. I don't see a weakness at all. If the conclusions were different, then we would need a lot more testing to isolate what might be the source of those differences.

I do have one tiny quibble with people who use the term DBT for this. This was not a double blind test. The listeners were blinded but the testers were not. It was a blind test, sometimes called a single blind test. Call it a SBT not a DBT. In this case, there is nothing wrong with that. There is no reason to believe that the testers were intentionally or unintentionally affecting the results recorded by the listeners, or that a genuine DBT would yeild a different outcome. The kinds of tests that really do need DBT conditions are large clinical trials of an experimental drug compared to a placebo, where both docs and patients do not know who is getting what. So let's please remember the difference :).

My favorite quote about the problem of audiophiles who refuse to believe blind listening test results comes from Floyd E. Toole, who is the pioneer in doing these tests.

“Knowledge of the products that are being evaluated is generally understood to be a powerful source of psychological bias. In scientific tests of many kinds, and even in wine tasting, considerable effort is expended to ensure the anonymity of the devices or substances being subjectively evaluated. In audio, though, things are more relaxed, and otherwise serious people persist in the belief that they can ignore such factors as price, size, brand, etc. In some of the “great debate” issues, like amplifiers, wires, and the like, there are assertions that disguising the product identity prevents listeners from hearing differences that are in the range of extremely small to inaudible. That debate shows no signs of slowing down.”​
 
A

AdrianMills

Full Audioholic
From my interpretation of their methodology the guys doing the switching only knew the systems as A and B and didn't know which referred to which system… so it would be a DBT as long as those that did know stayed out of contact from both the switchers and testees - it would have been fairly pointless keeping the switchers in the dark otherwise in fact.
 
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