Outlaw 1070 vs Rotel separates vs Denon 2807

[fahrfignewton]

Please help a cash poor newbie! Hello, I was hoping to get some advice on a system I'm putting together for my apartment. The goal is to have as good as possible music playback, without sacrificing (too much) in home theatre performance. I have spent the past 6 months acquiring the various speakers I wanted to use on Craigslist, Ebay, Audiogon etc. and am finally to the point of looking at a quality receiver or possibly used Rotel seperates if I can afford it. I've been looking at reviews for Denon 2807 which I can buy for around $900 or the Outlaw 1070 at the same price point and lately I've heard the Rotel separates, RSP-1068 and RMB-1075 and was real impressed (although not heard with the NHT speakers I have....SB3 mains, SC2 Center, SB1 surrounds and SubOne-i Subwoofer)) . I like the Denon for the future "proofing" features, the Rotel for the sound, and I have yet to hear the Outlaw so I really have no idea what the combination might sound like. A couple of local dealers here in the Twin Cities have cautioned me that the NHT speakers tend to require more amplification than most speakers and also that they sound overly "bright" and the british Rotel equipment might exaggerate that. Of course he sells Marantz....go figure. They are salesmen afterall, so I just wanted to get an unbiased viewpoint My questions are these: 1) Does anyone have any experience with any or all of these using the speaker combination that I have? and (finally...whew) 2) Any recommendations as to what the best choice would be for my speakers? I'm leaning toward the Outlaw, brand new at $899, but wanted to see if anyone has heard it first as there is no store where I can go audition one first) Thanks and sorry to be so long-winded

 

[Seth=L]

I was once considering the Outlaw 1070, but I went with a Yamaha HTR-5890 instead because it had more features and for an apartement it has more than enough power. I have used NHT speakers with my Yamaha with good results, and I would think you would get the same results using the Denon you suggested. If you find it doesn't have enough power you can get some power amplifiers to beef it up as it has preouts for all channels.

What receiver are you using now?

 

[fahrfignewton]

Right now I'm using an older NAD model 7150, stereo only and no way to hookup surround/subwoofer for the time being.

 

[Nick250]

I would pick on price and features and and go for a Yamaha or Onkyo in the $400 price range because I have owned both and have had no problems. In the big picture, the receiver does not have that much to do with sound quality, so you can that part out of your dicision makeing. There is some difference of opinion on this however. Anything in that price range should work fine. The Denon 2807 does have auto EQ and HDMI though if those are must haves.

Nick

 

[dem beats]

Twin cities?

You don't happen top mean MPLS st paul in MN do you??

I am in that area, and I feel verry limited by offerings aroudn here myself... anyway, to yoru question, I LOVED when I heard the Rotel receiver but have never heard the seperates. I have also heard amazing sound out of one of the NAD surround receivers.

 

[chas_w]

I owned an Outlaw 1070 for awhile. I thought it was an excellent sounding receiver (though I do not have NHT's), but returned it because of some frustrating no-audio issues.

Outlaw does have a 30 day trial period during which you can return the unit if not satisfied.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Outlaw bases their products on Sherwood Newcastle equipment - a very well made, high quality unit. The older Boston Acoustics AVR 7100 and 7120 were also cousins to the Outlaw/Sherwood Newcastle brand. With a solid warranty, I don't think you can go wrong.

Denon is more of a mass quantity manufacturer with a very good following. Their internal parts may not be as high quality as the Outlaw above, unless you go with one of their higher end units (4000 series and up). Rotel makes high quality, higher priced equipment with very good reviews. Some say their "flat" settings are a bit on the sibilant side, but with proper eqing, can be tamed to match the other units.

If someone states a speaker is "overly bright", they may be referring to the type of tweeter in the unit. Sometimes a horn or metal composition dome tweeter can be a bit sibilant, compared to a fabric soft dome. It is important to demo speakers with the amplifier before making a purchase. Outlaw's return policy provides for that.

 

[chas_w]

Outlaw bases their products on Sherwood Newcastle equipment

The Model 990 Pre/Pro is based on a Sherwood Newcastle, but I don't believe the 970/1070 are based on a Sherwood Newcastle platform. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this....

 

[NapaDRB]

Chas W,

I am considering the Outlaw 1070 and was curious about your experience with the no audio problem. I thought I had heard that there was a firmware upgrade to correct this, did you try it and what were the results?

Also, any other comments on this unit would be appreciated.

 

[PENG]

If you go to the Denon site and compare the 2307, 2807, 3806 you will find that the 3806 is the best deal among the 3. The 2307 and 2807 weigh roughly the same, just under 30 lbs, whereas the 3806 get you almost 10 lbs more (ask buckeyefan1 about his weigh criteria) and other SQ related features such as HDCD, DDSC, Denon Link etc.

If you don't want to spend the extra $200 on the 3806 you may as well go with the 2307 and save yourself $300. Then you can get a couple of Outlaw 200WPC monoblocks to drive your L/R NHT SP3s that can certainly benefit from the extra power for music enjoyment.

 

[chas_w]

No I never got to try the firmware upgrade. I believe it was released shortly after I returned the 1070. From what I understand the new firmware eliminated most, but not all of the no audio issues.

 

[EJD]

A couple of local dealers here in the Twin Cities have cautioned me that the NHT speakers tend to require more amplification than most speakers and also that they sound overly "bright" and the british Rotel equipment might exaggerate that....Does anyone have any experience with any or all of these using the speaker combination that I have?

My current set up is very similar to yours (see my sig) and I am on my second set of NHTs, I'm a big fan. I do agree that they require a bit more amplification because they are not the most efficient speakers. I don't necessarily agree with the brightness comment though. And, I really don't agree that a British amp will exaggerate any brightness. In fact, the combination of NHTs and NAD amplification (another British amp) was very smooth sounding to me. NAD is known for their slightly warm sound and I found that to be my experience as well.

Since you are going with a 5.1 setup, one possibility would be Emotiva's LPA-1 amp (125wpc x6 for $500) paired with a decent used receiver in the $300-$500 range (there are many to choose from) or a used a/v pre/pro like the Acurus Act3 for about $300. You probably won't need to upgrade the amp for a long time, especially if you live in an apartment. You may however want to take advantage of some of the advances in video processing someday, and replacing a $300 pre/pro probably won't make you feel too bad.

Good luck in the hunt.

 

[UFObuster]

A couple of local dealers here in the Twin Cities have cautioned me that the NHT speakers tend to require more amplification than most speakers and also that they sound overly "bright" and the british Rotel equipment might exaggerate that. Of course he sells Marantz....go figure.

I would be skeptical of the "brightness" issue with Rotel amps. I don't know your speakers so keep checking but FWIW my experience: My Klipsch RF-5 matched well with my Yamaha RX-V2600...loved it...added the larger RF-7 bringing in a lower impedance swing and found the Yammi a mismatch with significant "brightness"...bordering on harsh in loud hi-frequency passages and not enough uummph for the bottom ranges. Changed to Rotel amp and cured the problem. Significant experience with Rotel found at the Klipsch forum all suggest Rotel as a good match for Klipsch speakers that tend to be "bright".

If you can get good used deals on some separates, go for it, but there are really good receiver options. You just have to be very careful in matching quality of output with the speakers you already own. May look good on paper and sound awful...I've since sold the Yammi to an old friend who loves it with a pair of older Marantz towers. Outlaw sounds like a good bet since you can return it if you don't like it. But try to listen before you buy.

Maybe the best argument for separates is power. Even though a receiver may be rated at xxx watts...what are you really getting? Some fall-off in power running an HT system may represent a significant problem with certain speakers as I seem to have experienced.

 

[Ron Temple]

My HK235 that I was using as a pre/pro and was quite satisfied with took a dive last weekend. Very nice sounding pre...great detail and punch that got out of the way for the amps. Video goes direct from my Oppo and Comcast HDTV/DVR via HDMI. I decided to try a Denon 2307CI in it's place. I've got a Carver TFM35 driving my fronts and an Audiosource Amp/One bridged driving my center. I was really expecting the Denon to be an improvement over the entry level HK. For HT it's no big deal, but for 2channel and MCH, it doesn't come close in SQ. I've tried it naked without the amps, moved the amps around, re-eq'd, no eq, whatever...I can't shake the rolled off, but nasal highs, sibilance, detail buried in the midrange and narrow in comparison soundstage. I'm pretty disappointed in the difference I perceive in the SQ.

OP if you're used to the NAD sound, then I'd seriously consider passing on the Denon.

 

[PENG]

My HK235 that I was using as a pre/pro and was quite satisfied with took a dive last weekend. Very nice sounding pre...great detail and punch that got out of the way for the amps. Video goes direct from my Oppo and Comcast HDTV/DVR via HDMI. I decided to try a Denon 2307CI in it's place. I've got a Carver TFM35 driving my fronts and an Audiosource Amp/One bridged driving my center. I was really expecting the Denon to be an improvement over the entry level HK. For HT it's no big deal, but for 2channel and MCH, it doesn't come close in SQ. I've tried it naked without the amps, moved the amps around, re-eq'd, no eq, whatever...I can't shake the rolled off, but nasal highs, sibilance, detail buried in the midrange and narrow in comparison soundstage. I'm pretty disappointed in the difference I perceive in the SQ.

OP if you're used to the NAD sound, then I'd seriously consider passing on the Denon.

That is strange! I wonder if your speakers (and amp) happen to match perfectly with the 235 but not with the 2307. Without the amp, I am not sure it has enough power to make your SDA sound good, but then the same could be said about the 235. I have not listened to the 2307 but I am quite impressed with the SQ I got out of the entry level 1705 (C$300) that drives Polk RTi38 speakers in my other system. To me, the 1705 sounds similar and as good as the HKAVR230, 430 that I had heard several times in Future shops, driving Polk RTi speakers. Too bad I cannot compare it with my main system's 3805 because the 1705 does not have pre-outs. I did compare the 3805 with my separate system though, and the 3805 held its own surprisingly well. I like the HK models myself, and I almost bought the 7300, but I never found them better sounding than similarly prices (in the U.S.) Denon models. I eventually settled on the Denon based mainly on price and reliability. HK models are sold at premium prices in Canada.

Anyway, after reading the original post again, I don't think he will be happy with anything else other than the Rotel separates that he was impressed with in the first place.

 

[Ron Temple]

That is strange! I wonder if your speakers (and amp) happen to match perfectly with the 235 but not with the 2307. Without the amp, I am not sure it has enough power to make your SDA sound good, but then the same could be said about the 235. I have not listened to the 2307 but I am quite impressed with the SQ I got out of the entry level 1705 (C$300) that drives Polk RTi38 speakers in my other system. To me, the 1705 sounds similar and as good as the HKAVR230, 430 that I had heard several times in Future shops, driving Polk RTi speakers. Too bad I cannot compare it with my main system's 3805 because the 1705 does not have pre-outs. I did compare the 3805 with my separate system though, and the 3805 held its own surprisingly well. I like the HK models myself, and I almost bought the 7300, but I never found them better sounding than similarly prices (in the U.S.) Denon models. I eventually settled on the Denon based mainly on price and reliability. HK models are sold at premium prices in Canada.

Anyway, after reading the original post again, I don't think he will be happy with anything else other than the Rotel separates that he was impressed with in the first place.

I'm a bit stumped on this as well. Another Polkie was driving 1.2s using a 235 as a pre, then upgraded to a dedicated Outlaw 990. His first impression was it wasn't an upgrade, then after downloading some firmware, started to appreciate it. John Garcia tells me SQ improves starting at the 2807 and really gets very good around the 4xxx series Denons. Anyway, HK Direct is replacing the 235 which I was going to sell, but now I think the Denon's going back and I'll keep the HK pre until I'm sure whatever I upgrade to has synergy with my speakers.

Note: I'm not p*ssing on the Denon, it's feature rich and would be fine for a HT receiver...it just suffers in comparison for music. I was very happy before and the changes are hard to listen to.

Agree with you on the Rotel...or stick with Nad.

 

[oldgoalie33]

If music is your main priority, I'd look at the Outlaw or the Rotel. The Marantz your dealer is pushing may be fine as well. I've seen quite a few posts of satisfied Marantz/NHT users on other forums, but I've not had experience with one. I've had several different NHT combos (currently Classic 3's with a 3C and SuperZero's for surrounds) and have been through a number of receivers as I have the same priority as you. I have an older Denon and it just doesn't drive the NHT's very well...OK for movies but not music. I tried a Yamaha 659...great for movies but not so great for music. I'm currently 'trying out' a NAD T743 which sounds quite good...but NHT and NAD have always been a good match, especially for music. The best sound I've had so far in my quest has been a Cambridge 540R...great sound, great separation, great detail, loads of power..but IMO it was so user unfriendly that I sent it back. The display was unreadable in my setup and the remote was so poor that I had to get up and walk over to the unit to see what I'd input...it was a hassle for me not to mention the family!
My wife and I watched one of her favorites last night and she commented that the Cambridge sounded better than the NHT though....ugghh!! I think if you go with a receiver/amp like Rotel/Outlaw/NAD/Cambridge or the Emotiva as suggested you won't have a problem driving your NHT's. Good luck.