Suprise!, high end dvd players $thousands are now rip-offs in terms of quality/price

[aec]

I have a Marantz DV8400 and got a great price on it, but it still ran me just under $1,000. I listen to almost all of my music in 2 channel direct. I have about 30 SACDs (compared to 400+ cds) and for those that I think really lend themselves to 5 channel sound, I play in 5 channel. For all of my music, I am using my analog outputs on the player. The sound is smoother, quieter and clearer. The manufacturers of SACD/DVD-A screwed the format up because they did not agree on a standard (ala HD-DVD/Blu-ray) and it could not be marketed to the masses. So most of SACD sales are relegated to what is now a niche market, just like the 180 or 200 gram LPs. Will Joe six-pack spend the money for this? Not a chance. Can Joe sixpack here the difference? Probably not and if he can, he does not care. I have no desire to run my whole system through my pc. I believe analog music sounds better than digital music. Almost every receiver now has a pure direct output for music and that is because unprocessed music sounds better. Will a digital card to that? Hearing is believing and for me, the sound matters. My 2 cents.

 

[jcPanny]

DVD-A and SACD for $230

A Home Theater PC is not for everone including myself. When you add the cost of the sound card video card and sound proofing the PC, it is not exactly inexpensive either.

I would spend my $230 on the new Oppo Digital player for quality video upscalling to 1080p. If you use HDMI to output DVD-A and SACD to the receiver than the internal audio section is a non issue making it just as capable as one of the high end Denon DVD players. On my relatively small 32" LCD, the low end Oppo DV970HD player is working fine.

 

[BarryDVD]

If you're playing a DVD on a 1920x1200 LCD[24-27inch], what does the upscaling, the LCD or the GPU?

 

[HTHOLIC]

See my FIRST LINK I POSTED

Yeah, if you have latest drivers for those cheap nviida and ATI cards in the newer series (ie x1300 and 7300gt) the review mentions that it beats dvd players.

You are Not Paying hundreds of Dollars, or rather Thousands - see the 3910c review on audioholics and the one for $4,000.
For the SACD support or for something that does one task (ie, something that just plays DVD is something thats just plays music and won't having OS issues, ie computer issues),

bur Rather the price premium was for video performance in HQV, sure denon bundles additional features but the hundereds and thousands were for video quality

I have the OPPO BTW, hardly use it, but its scores are nowhere as good as the denon's and it has a 3/5 rating at audioholics.
SACD players are under $100, and with HDMI streaming you can have the receiTver's more powerful DACS play it if you must, it has to have hdmi 1.2

Even the PS3 supports BOTH blu-ray and SACD, and HDMI 1.3, DolbytrueHD,wirlessg,bluetooth,etc. If only every school kid bought it like the ps2. It does have a similar nvidia component but doesnt have high hqv scores to it not having update drivers, and archietiure similar to the PC.

The PC is doing 1080p output or 1920x1200, via HDMI or dvi with HDCP which is compatible with HDMI[/COLOR

A number of cheap cooling solutions exist and it can be streamed wirelessly. But keep this in mind:

What if OPPO decided to use the NVIDIA chip tommroow in its $200 player and it beat the $4,000 or $1,500 denon.

Why is denon charging so much, I guess technology has improved to a point where it has made it obsolete, ie like hard drive sizes or video cards in computers.

 

[MACCA350]

HTHOLIC, if you were referring to this shootout between video cards and dvd players then I think there is something fishy going on. They state the Denon 3910's HQV score as 58, but if you look here it has a score of 75(in Auto1 mode). Seems like someone is playing with the numbers

How about comparing the Denon 3930 or the 5910 as both have a score of 130 (maybe has something to do with the built in Realta T2™ HQV chip by Teranex)

There is no point trying to convince us, ever wonder why people buy a Porsche instead of a Ford even though they both get you from A to B

There are many reasons people choose the gear they do not least of which is the build and construction quality, style, etc. So give it up, you've said you piece, we've heard it, now build a bridge

cheers

 

[Reorx]

Ahh, a fun thread.
Windows Media Center in the past sucked. The most recent version is 'ok'
If you dont use WMC, it can become more difficult for the average user. With a HTPC, You have to worry about codec's, drivers, 1 million windows updates, security, virus's, and more.

Don't like windows? well you can do the same thing with Linux, and do it better. It's just a little more complex to setup.

With a HD-DVD/BL-RAY/DVD player you do not have to worry about all that stuff. You put the disc in and it plays.

What about HDCP? Video cards with HDCP are very new. The latest version of PureVideo's HD is very new, the past version was poor and plagued with problems. There is 1 nvidia card less then $200 that say's it has HDCP support. Everything else is $200+.

Now lets talk about audio.
IMHO Creative lab's sucks. The 1 decent card they have costs ~$150-$200. You will be hard pressed to find many production studio's using any kind of creative devices. Are you able to hear a difference between mp3's and a CD or DVD-A/SaCD?
Lossless codec's are nice. But requires another install, a proper player, and can get complex.

With a SACD/DVD-A player you do not have to worry about all that stuff. You put the disc in and it plays.

Lets break down the HTPC costs:
Video Card - $200
Sound Card - $150
Motherboard - $150
Memory 1gb - $40
CPU Core2duo e6300 - $170
CASE - $100 (atleast
DVD Player - $30 ($800 for blueray)
HardDrive 500GB - $100
$740 + s/h.
And you have to worry about individual warranty of each piece.

fyi,
I am a computer network engineer, I've had my own business, and built over 1000 pc's since 1992. I have both a linux and a XP box that I use partially as a HTPC's. And unless I am playing divx or a recorded tv show, I am using a standalone DVD player. For house party's I use the HTPC, it's easier to mix music.

Don't forget the WAF! most wifes like to follow the K.I.S.S. principle.

 

[Shortsord]

Reorx:

You're fantastic at saying what I try to in about a quarter the space and much clearer. Convenience is really a very big factor in a player like that, for some.

But, I also wanted to add that you missed somethings necessary for the HTPC: a power supply. Even a hundred dollar case will need a better power supply for that graphics card. Oh, and to run silently, a decent liquid cooling system.

This news really does, though, make the idea of building a HTPC for myself much more attractive. But I'm not really a windows person so it might be a bigger bother than I want. I guess it's just a matter of convenience .

 

[HTHOLIC]

HTHOLIC, if you were referring to this shootout between video cards and dvd players then I think there is something fishy going on. They state the Denon 3910's HQV score as 58, but if you look here it has a score of 75(in Auto1 mode). Seems like someone is playing with the numbers

How about comparing the Denon 3930 or the 5910 as both have a score of 130 (maybe has something to do with the built in Realta T2™ HQV chip by Teranex)

There is no point trying to convince us, ever wonder why people buy a Porsche instead of a Ford even though they both get you from A to B

There are many reasons people choose the gear they do not least of which is the build and construction quality, style, etc. So give it up, you've said you piece, we've heard it, now build a bridge

cheers

Sorry, Macca but that there is a difference between the DENON 3910 and the denon 3910c that latter which runs for $1,500 and the 5000 running for $4,000 I was referring to, and in reference to FORD V. Porsche - its like getting a Porsche for $100 rather than one for $1,500 there is no "FORD" THAT You are talking about in my thread

There are no fishy numbers Nvidia scores a 123 and probably more with the recent drivers, and beats denon's 3910 player, the 3910c is a bit better, and of course audioholics tested 1080i and not 1080p with the regular 3910

I don't see where the FORD is except probably the 3910 being the ford that costs 8-10 more than the ati and nvidia video cards and scores 58 and 70 depending on the resolution and modes (note this is the orginial 3910), the 3910c does score 130 for $1,400 for a gain of 7 points assuming nvidia didn't get a better score with an updated driver

And the nvidia cards and ati cards cost under $100. The comparison between a "FORD" and a "PORSCHE" is highly not applicable here, unless its purevideo v. orignial 3910 or the OPPO.

The Denon Being the FORD of course That costs 10 times more LOL. The Purevideo and AVIVO could never be considered "FORDS" , don't feel bad maca if equipment goes oboslete or better equipment becomes cheaper, it happens all the time.

[/COLOR]"]In reference to aec's comments , there is no such thing as "digital audio", all digital data in order for it to be heard is converted to analog one way or the other, unless you are talking about using an old record player as an analog format or tape and hooking it up. SACD is digital format also as well as CD.

Just a tip as many companies try to promote their products as "digital audio".

In reference to reorx chemist, I appreciate his input as a computer engineer. The new x-fi cards especially the Elite version are used in recording studio's in terms of the same parts. Creative's subsidary EMU has many cheap studio-quality cards, up until the X-fi series (be careful of the watered down versions) , creative sucked in a lot of ways, and yes you can play DVD-A.

Parts are only going to get cheaper btw, Ive had one PC that hasn't had a hardware problem in the last 5 years except to replace a bad brand dvd burner.

Computer engineers though, are sometimes more about theory then deciding to build the latest graphics cards, or overclocking , using lossless flac codecs and so on. And yes times have changed since 92.

 

[highfihoney]

I dont get what point your trying to make with all of this?

Is the point that your trying to educate buyers?

Is that point that buyers should turn their PC into a home audio device?

To me this comes off as yet another "all hi end" buyers are stupid(or being ripped off) because "I" have found something that "I" feel works just as good for "ME" as "your" hi end player.

 

[MACCA350]

Sorry, Macca but that there is a difference between the DENON 3910 and the denon 3910c that latter which runs for $1,500 and the 5000 running for $4,000 I was referring to, and in reference to FORD V. Porsche - its like getting a Porsche for $100 rather than one for $1,500 there is no "FORD" THAT You are talking about in my thread

There are no fishy numbers Nvidia scores a 123 and probably more with the recent drivers, and beats denon's 3910 player, the 3910c is a bit better, and of course audioholics tested 1080i and not 1080p with the regular 3910

I don't see where the FORD is except probably the 3910 being the ford that costs 8-10 more than the ati and nvidia video cards and scores 58 and 70 depending on the resolution and modes (note this is the orginial 3910), the 3910c does score 130 for $1,400 for a gain of 7 points assuming nvidia didn't get a better score with an updated driver

And the nvidia cards and ati cards cost under $100. The comparison between a "FORD" and a "PORSCHE" is highly not applicable here, unless its purevideo v. orignial 3910 or the OPPO.

The Denon Being the FORD of course That costs 10 times more LOL. The Purevideo and AVIVO could never be considered "FORDS" , don't feel bad maca if equipment goes oboslete or better equipment becomes cheaper, it happens all the time.

[/COLOR]"]In reference to aec's comments , there is no such thing as "digital audio", all digital data in order for it to be heard is converted to analog one way or the other, unless you are talking about using an old record player as an analog format or tape and hooking it up. SACD is digital format also as well as CD.

Just a tip as many companies try to promote their products as "digital audio".

In reference to reorx chemist, I appreciate his input as a computer engineer. The new x-fi cards especially the Elite version are used in recording studio's in terms of the same parts. Creative's subsidary EMU has many cheap studio-quality cards, up until the X-fi series (be careful of the watered down versions) , creative sucked in a lot of ways, and yes you can play DVD-A.

Parts are only going to get cheaper btw, Ive had one PC that hasn't had a hardware problem in the last 5 years except to replace a bad brand dvd burner.

Computer engineers though, are sometimes more about theory then deciding to build the latest graphics cards, or overclocking , using lossless flac codecs and so on. And yes times have changed since 92.

HTHOLIC, if you were referring to this shootout between video cards and dvd players then I think there is something fishy going on. They state the Denon 3910's HQV score as 58, but if you look here it has a score of 75(in Auto1 mode). Seems like someone is playing with the numbers

This is the same player with different HQV scores, there is no 3910c

I could keep poking but its not worth the effort, so good luck with your crusade, I'm done with this thread.

 

[Seth=L]

I dont get what point your trying to make with all of this?

Is the point that your trying to educate buyers?

Is that point that buyers should turn their PC into a home audio device?

To me this comes off as yet another "all hi end" buyers are stupid(or being ripped off) because "I" have found something that "I" feel works just as good for "ME" as "your" hi end player.

That is exactly what it sounds like.

To the OP-
Point is, even if the HTPC outperforms DVD players in its price range it doesn't change the fact that DVD players are far easier to use and integrate into a video/sound system.

 

[Reorx]

In reference to reorx chemist, I appreciate his input as a computer engineer. The new x-fi cards especially the Elite version are used in recording studio's in terms of the same parts. Creative's subsidary EMU has many cheap studio-quality cards, up until the X-fi series (be careful of the watered down versions) , creative sucked in a lot of ways, and yes you can play DVD-A.

Parts are only going to get cheaper btw, I've had one PC that hasn't had a hardware problem in the last 5 years except to replace a bad brand dvd burner.

Computer engineers though, are sometimes more about theory then deciding to build the latest graphics cards, or overclocking , using lossless flac codecs and so on. And yes times have changed since 92.

I am a computer network engineer, I've had my own business, and built over 1000 pc's since 1992. I have both a linux and a XP box that I use partially as a HTPC's.

You missed a few points. Computer network engineer isnt the same as a computer engineer. 1000pc's werent all in 1 year, it has been spread out. I built 15 pc's in '06, and 2 pc's in '07 thus far. In '07 it was a fully loaded Intel Core2Duo, and a Athlon 64 X2 5600 system. 1 had a geforce 8800GTS, the other a quadro fx card. Both PC's motherboards had digital audio outputs, so there was no need to buy another card. I would of built more, but work and a new house took up to much of my time.

1 hardware problem in only 5 years? You are lucky. Most pc parts are cheaply made, and pretty disposable now. Unless you pay the extra money to get the quality parts. How many software problems did you have?

Coming back around to the main topic....
Besides the convience factor, To make a HTPC sound just as good as a $1k-$2k SACD/DVD-A player, that'll output/upscale to 1080p, They both will end up costing about the same.

You will get more functionality from the HTPC, but it will be much less convenient then a standalone player.

 

[jmrife]

Thnaks for the rant and all, including the bold face and the red color which really improve your trust position a whole lot (everyone knows that the extra weight and color mean you are more sincere and dedicated), but I think I will keep my 3940 and you can keep your HTPC.

 

[avaserfi]

Reading over this thread, well it almost seems to have no point. Its two opposing sides argueing with eachother but no one will budge..

Personally I am happy with my oppo's PQ and would not bother wasting the time or money on an HTPC, especially with all the problems I have heard about them.

In the end DVD players plug and play performance is what people are paying for in part not just the PQ.