External Amp Makes a BiIG Difference

[indcrimdefense]

none of the comparisions between my krell & the cary 500 MB were double blind prior to purchase. i have done double blind testing at home before, using my dad as a test subject, who is more patient in this regard than virtually all of my friends. unfortunately, dad is not so patient when it come to switching interlinks or even using a remote control (the remotes for his 2805 & 2910 gather dust on top of his tv at home) so i have to be the one running the test. i don't recall doing any db tests between amplifiers, but have done it alot comparing various cd and or dvd players. i level match w/ an spl & using the anthem set up. sometimes we can hear a difference between different components & sometimes we cannot. some differences are so subtle as to possibly be no difference at all, othertimes there are fairly distinct differences. when i'm demoing a component at home, i do the same thing but i obviously cannot conduct a db test on myself. while it's not a perfect method, it has worked for my purposes.

as for differences between the krell & cary amplifiers, they are fairly evident at my normal listening volumes. i meant to measure what that was over the past few nights but simply forgot to. i don't compare components at very low volumes b/c i don't listen to music that way, so i really have no idea if there are any differences between the krell & cary amps at very low volumes. at very high spl (much louder than i would normally sit & listen to) the differences between the 2 amplifiers is more pronounced, but that is not to say that the difference is not discernible at regular listening levels. it is entirely possible that i do a lackluster job of attempting to describe the differences in what i hear.

i am sure that my comparison method won't satisfy all of the members of this listserve, but it works well for me when i'm evaluating a component for a possible purchase. i also hope that at least some of the members find some value in my observations. hope that helps.

 

[highfihoney]

i am sure that my comparison method won't satisfy all of the members of this listserve, but it works well for me when i'm evaluating a component for a possible purchase. i also hope that at least some of the members find some value in my observations. hope that helps.

Great post,there are a few of us who want to hear user reviews & comparisons,im one of them btw,i think its refreshing to read & participate in a post about something other than hdmi or how to cram as many components into one remote, just dont expect too much acceptance from most.

When i compare 2 amps i like to do instantanious ab switching & use a spectrum analyzer measuring the sound in the room to see in real time the differences that im hearing.

If you want to test your amps in the best possible home method run them so you can do an ab switch on the fly,set spl levels with your meter & pick up an acoustic analyzer that will measure room response from your listening position.

 

[indcrimdefense]

thanks for your comments & support, hifi honey. you have a very nice system, i have heard the 1200 amps before & was very impressed but they were out of my price range. i was going to demo a pair of 501's but the opportunity came up to buy the cary 500 MB new w/ warranty at a price well below retail, & for far less than the dealer was willing to do for a set of 501's so i jumped on it. the dealer i demoed them from last year did not carry mac, & the dealer i purchased from has never had the cary 500 as a demo, so i have never had the chance to compare the 2 amplifiers. however i still love the look of blue meters & the mac sound. thanks as well for the advice on amplifier comparision.

 

[mtrycrafts]

none of the comparisions between my krell & the cary 500 MB were double blind prior to purchase. i have done double blind testing at home before, using my dad as a test subject, who is more patient in this regard than virtually all of my friends. unfortunately, dad is not so patient when it come to switching interlinks or even using a remote control (the remotes for his 2805 & 2910 gather dust on top of his tv at home) so i have to be the one running the test. i don't recall doing any db tests between amplifiers, but have done it alot comparing various cd and or dvd players. i level match w/ an spl & using the anthem set up. sometimes we can hear a difference between different components & sometimes we cannot. some differences are so subtle as to possibly be no difference at all, othertimes there are fairly distinct differences. when i'm demoing a component at home, i do the same thing but i obviously cannot conduct a db test on myself. while it's not a perfect method, it has worked for my purposes.

as for differences between the krell & cary amplifiers, they are fairly evident at my normal listening volumes. i meant to measure what that was over the past few nights but simply forgot to. i don't compare components at very low volumes b/c i don't listen to music that way, so i really have no idea if there are any differences between the krell & cary amps at very low volumes. at very high spl (much louder than i would normally sit & listen to) the differences between the 2 amplifiers is more pronounced, but that is not to say that the difference is not discernible at regular listening levels. it is entirely possible that i do a lackluster job of attempting to describe the differences in what i hear.

i am sure that my comparison method won't satisfy all of the members of this listserve, but it works well for me when i'm evaluating a component for a possible purchase. i also hope that at least some of the members find some value in my observations. hope that helps.

I have a few questions. Nice to read that you are trying some bias controls.

How do you level match or try to? Yes, you use an spl meter, which one and what signals do you use?

Have you tried to do statistical analysis? Have your dad try 10 trials to see if he can identify amp A or B? Number of correct guesses?
Do you have access to a volt meter that can read beyond 60Hz AC?

 

[indcrimdefense]

1st i level match w/ radioshack analog spl meter using test tones from anthem, & if adjustments are necessary i use the input level controls in the anthem. however, & perhaps it was just subjective, i at times find that different cd's still sound louder or softer between components, so when doing comparisions i generally have the spl meter out to make sure that the volume between 2 components for a particular song are as close as possible.

i have not tried doing any statistical analysis, nor have i ever tried to have dad or anyone else try to correctly identify a particular component when doing a blind test. i simply asked if they could tell a difference & if so, to try & describe what differences they heard, & then if they had a preference & why. from memory dad was almost perfect when i did not change the source, in other words when i played the same track from the same machine in succession. depending on the component, he was less than perfect in attempting to tell the difference between 2 different components. for example, telling the difference between a cary dvd 6 & a denon 5910 is possible, but difficult & imo no one would get this right all the time. the differences between a cary dvd6 & cary 303/300 were more pronounced & easier to determine. the 300 sounds more open in the treble, has more precise imaging & a deeper soundstage. for cd's one knows really well, the differences are even more pronounced. for example, in the first movement of dvorak's 9th, when the drums kick in, they are far more distinct, both in sound & soundstage placement, than w/ the dvd6 or the dvd7.

while i understand the relevance of doing statistical analysis, my comparisions are primarily for my own use in determining to buy a component. if it comes down to having to do a statistical analysis, i can already tell you that i'm not going to buy it, as if i can't make out the differences w/o doing a flowchart the differences if any are not worth my hard earned dollars.

i don't have a volt meter, & not sure i would know what to do with one.

my goal in the end is to determine whether a particular component provides a sonic improvement over what is currently in my system, & as important, is that sonic improvement worth the purchase price over what i currently own. for example, i have had a 5910 on demo for over a week. compared to my dvd6 for cd, it has slightly better definition in the treble (for example, cymbals sound more defined) & detail overall appears slightly better. the dvd6 has a slightly darker, more robust quality to it, the 5910 a slightly more detailed, more clinical sound. sacd & dvda quality was good but sounded on the sterile side to me, & in a completely unscientific comparison sacd from the 5910 was not a significant improvement over redbook from the dvd6, playing the same disc at the same time & switching back & forth between the 2, which i found very surprising, particularly when i had to struggle at times to determine the difference between the 2 players. the 5910 did have slightly better definition & detail on sacd than redbook from the dvd6, but it was not the significant improvement. as my primary reason for buying a 5910 now would be the high resolution formats (i currently lack a player for high resolution formats) & for it's video capability, this all but made up my mind.

i did not compare the video output of the 2 players, but i assume that the 5910 would bury my dvd6 which only has a 480p output. as my current sony only has s video inputs there was really no way for me to test in any meaningful way the video outputs of the 2 players. in the end, i'm not going to buy the 5910 as it was not a significant enough improvement over what i already have to justify the cost. if i was making the decision from scratch, & depending on price, & only comparing between these 2 components, i would buy the 5910 to use as a dvd player as it offers more options & improved video quality over the dvd6. however as i already own a dvd6, & the 5910 did not offer significantly improved sound quality over what i already have, i'm not going to buy it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

1st i level match w/ radioshack analog spl meter using test tones from anthem, & if adjustments are necessary i use the input level controls in the anthem. however, & perhaps it was just subjective, i at times find that different cd's still sound louder or softer between components, so when doing comparisions i generally have the spl meter out to make sure that the volume between 2 components for a particular song are as close as possible.

i have not tried doing any statistical analysis, nor have i ever tried to have dad or anyone else try to correctly identify a particular component when doing a blind test. i simply asked if they could tell a difference & if so, to try & describe what differences they heard, & then if they had a preference & why.

Thanks for the explanation. Do you have a test CD with single tones on it instead of pink noise? That would do a better level matching with the spl meter and would be obvious if a cd player is outputting more than another.

Your statistics needs are simple, really. Do 10 attempts at random selections and just ask for sameness or differences, or is it a or b when a or b was introduced just before it. Need 9 of 10, 12 of 15.
A couple of correct responses alone are not very meaningful.

 

[indcrimdefense]

thanks for reminding me, i do have a set up cd w/ test tones as opposed to white noise, will pull that out next time i compare components.

next time i compare components w/ dad, i will chart the results & post.

 

[PENG]

thanks for reminding me, i do have a set up cd w/ test tones as opposed to white noise, will pull that out next time i compare components.

next time i compare components w/ dad, i will chart the results & post.

It would be great if you can take the time to do some serious controlled BT as mtry suggested. I wonder if you could do the tests not just with the S8 but also with the more popular lower (relative to the S8) end, say <$2.5K such as the Studio 100, Polk LSI/RTI speakers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

thanks for reminding me, i do have a set up cd w/ test tones as opposed to white noise, will pull that out next time i compare components.

next time i compare components w/ dad, i will chart the results & post.

Since you have such a test disc, you may want to try several frequencies:100Hz, 1kHz, and 10kHz. Try 70dB spl, 80 is loud, as then the meter is centered up and you can see small changes from 70. Not to worry if you have to change volume initially to get to 70 as you change frequencies. That would be just a speaker response issue, not component level differences until you actually change the component to see without moving the master volume.

Also, you can be sneaky with the sequences or randomness. See what happens if you just pretend to swap, all 10 trials. See how many he guesses wrong. That is a good test of expectations and placebo. If we didn't have that we would not guess incorrectly when nothing changes

 

[indcrimdefense]

peng- will do next time i have a disc player on demo. i have a cary cinema 11 pre-pro on demo now, but don't know of a way to conduct a db test where i can simply switch on the fly between 2 pre-pro, waiting on when i can get a cary 306 cd/sacd player for a demo. the studio 100 is on the short list for my future center speakers but have yet to set up a demo, as getting speakers home for a demo is a bit more difficult than components simply due to speaker size & what i drive. as i don't have an amp yet to drive an additional set of speakers (once i buy speakers) may be awhile. have discussed w/ dealer setting up the studio 100 as dual centers in between 1 of the 2 pairs of demo S8 they currently have, but he hasn't done it yet.

mtyrcrafts, looked for my test disc last night but couldn't find it. can you recommend where i can get one from? when i did do db testing w/ dad, there was alot of times when i didn't change anything just to see if he could tell the difference. but next time he's over & i have a disc player on demo will track the results.

 

[mtrycrafts]

mtyrcrafts, looked for my test disc last night but couldn't find it. can you recommend where i can get one from? when i did do db testing w/ dad, there was alot of times when i didn't change anything just to see if he could tell the difference. but next time he's over & i have a disc player on demo will track the results.

Here is one

http://www.musicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=ARIVESCD2

Sheffield has one too.

Maybe a Google or Amazon search for a better price.

 

[PENG]

peng- will do next time i have a disc player on demo. i have a cary cinema 11 pre-pro on demo now, but don't know of a way to conduct a db test where i can simply switch on the fly between 2 pre-pro, waiting on when i can get a cary 306 cd/sacd player for a demo.

I also find it next to impossible to A/B (let alone DB) compare two prepro or preamps. Let me know if you manage to find a way.

 

[indcrimdefense]

peng, only way i know how is unhook one & hook the other one up. have only been listening to the cinema 11, will start the less than fun process of ab comparison in the next several days. will probably just have the 2 pre-pros side by side so i can switch as quickly & with as little fuss as possible.

mytr- the cary 11 has an auto setup w a set up microphone, which i used multiple times a day this weekend being a dork (french doors open, french doors closed, moving accoustic treatments, etc.). the test signals are different from what my anthem uses, it's not what i would describe as simply white noise, & it runs the signals in triple bursts per speaker for different parts of the set up (speaker identification, level matching, crossover, room eq). the supplied set up mike is heavier & much wider than others i have seen/used, & uses an xlr connection. once the auto setup is complete, you can adjust manually any of the settings.

i did find my test disc, but it lacks the ability to measure at specific frequencies. for now using the cary auto set up & then manually tweaking, will later buy a test disc if i don't buy the cary.

 

[mtrycrafts]

mytr- the cary 11 has an auto setup w a set up microphone, which i used multiple times a day this weekend being a dork (french doors open, french doors closed, moving accoustic treatments, etc.). the test signals are different from what my anthem uses, it's not what i would describe as simply white noise, & it runs the signals in triple bursts per speaker for different parts of the set up (speaker identification, level matching, crossover, room eq). the supplied set up mike is heavier & much wider than others i have seen/used, & uses an xlr connection. once the auto setup is complete, you can adjust manually any of the settings.

i did find my test disc, but it lacks the ability to measure at specific frequencies. for now using the cary auto set up & then manually tweaking, will later buy a test disc if i don't buy the cary.

It is great to read all that you are doing to do a better comparison.

When you use auto setup on one receiver/processor, then another, You could have different FR set into the components.
For what you are attempting, you should use both in the EQ off modes, or flat so they are both at least set the same.
Then, from a CD/DVD player, you run that test CD with those tones and level match.
You could perhaps use a Y connector from the player to each receiver/processor input, speaker cables to the speakers but either at the speakers or at the receiver have a double pole double throw switch for each speaker so you can select which way the signal is passed to the speaker and you won't have both amps on the speaker at the same time.

 

[indcrimdefense]

mtrycrafts-

i did have concerns that comparing between pre-pros the settings could affect things, for stereo i'm using analog bypass on the cinema 11 & same for the avm 30. however for digital i will try & keep the setup as close as possible between the 2, in other words if room correction is on in the cary then it will be on in the anthem, or off for both, etc. will also try & make sure that whatever settings are being used are the same, i.e. that crossover points are set the same. the anthem also lacks an auto setup & setup mike.
besides, differences in some of the set up may favor one pre-pro or the other, for example what if the anthem does better room correction than the cary? it was interesting to see how close or how far apart the settings were for my various speakers are, the fronts have much closer numbers than the surrounds, but the nature of my listening room prohibits setting the surrounds in exactly the same position to the surrounding walls, as the right rear of the room has a fireplace on a 45 degree angle. while the surround speakers relative to the listening position are in an identical position, the surrounding walls behind the surrounds are vastly different.

anything else is probably beyond my limited technical expertise, as far as trying to use some kind of switcher. had considered seeing if a dealer had some kind of extra switcher that i might borrow, but i don't like adding another set of connections & component that would not normally be there. it's not perfect, but it will have to do.

i'm also completely aware that a strong amount of completely subjective analysis may affect the purchasing decision of a new pre-pro, as the cinema 11 is beautiful piece of equipment, looks really sharp sitting on my dvd6, & matches the overall decor of all my components much better than the avm 30. i was sent a black avm 30 by mistake, but it was so wicked looking in black w/ the silver buttons that i decided to keep it. however now it's my only black component. while i would not buy audio equipment on appearance alone, looking good doesn't exactly hurt either.

 

[mtrycrafts]

mtrycrafts-

i did have concerns that comparing between pre-pros the settings could affect things, for stereo i'm using analog bypass on the cinema 11 & same for the avm 30. however for digital i will try & keep the setup as close as possible between the 2, in other words if room correction is on in the cary then it will be on in the anthem, or off for both, etc. will also try & make sure that whatever settings are being used are the same, i.e. that crossover points are set the same. the anthem also lacks an auto setup & setup mike.
besides, differences in some of the set up may favor one pre-pro or the other, for example what if the anthem does better room correction than the cary? it was interesting to see how close or how far apart the settings were for my various speakers are, the fronts have much closer numbers than the surrounds, but the nature of my listening room prohibits setting the surrounds in exactly the same position to the surrounding walls, as the right rear of the room has a fireplace on a 45 degree angle. while the surround speakers relative to the listening position are in an identical position, the surrounding walls behind the surrounds are vastly different.

anything else is probably beyond my limited technical expertise, as far as trying to use some kind of switcher. had considered seeing if a dealer had some kind of extra switcher that i might borrow, but i don't like adding another set of connections & component that would not normally be there. it's not perfect, but it will have to do.

i'm also completely aware that a strong amount of completely subjective analysis may affect the purchasing decision of a new pre-pro, as the cinema 11 is beautiful piece of equipment, looks really sharp sitting on my dvd6, & matches the overall decor of all my components much better than the avm 30. i was sent a black avm 30 by mistake, but it was so wicked looking in black w/ the silver buttons that i decided to keep it. however now it's my only black component. while i would not buy audio equipment on appearance alone, looking good doesn't exactly hurt either.

Yes, the components capability to correct for room effects can and may be different, that is one of my concerns and that it may be large enough of a difference to matter. But, without a lot more equipment to measure those differences, it will be tricky. But, you seem to know this issue.

Also, don't let us talk you out of a component because you thin it is beautiful. That can be very important to some and a valid reason. Good luck and let us know which we think you will after all this.