Different crossover points?

darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
Take receiver of your choice with the input/outputs that you want(HDMI, etc.) and use the pre-outs to feed a professional audio DSP crossover (such as Behringer DCX2496) and then feed the DCX outputs to outboard amplification. Behringer A500 is the most cost effective ( and versatile ) amplification of which I am aware in this case. Each DCX2496 has 3 inputs and 6 outputs(which can be configured in any way you desire). So you need two DCX2496 for a 5.1 surround sound system. Add another for 6.1 or 7.1. The DCX units can be daisy chained together so that one is the master controller, and you can also hook a PC to them for configuration using the provided freeware utility. The DCX units will allow nearly any rate/frequency/topology that you so desire, and in addition, can provide for corrective frequency response on every channel individually. Also, it has programmable dynamic limiters/compressors that can be used to protect speakers from transients.

-Chris
Wow. You certainly seem to know your stuff. That actually seems a little complicated to me. But it looks like the Behringer A500 is a 2-channel amp. Does that mean I would need multiple amps to run a 5.1 or 6.1 system? This seems a little pricey, especially I would need 2 or 3 DCX2496's for the signal processing.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Wow. You certainly seem to know your stuff. That actually seems a little complicated to me. But it looks like the Behringer A500 is a 2-channel amp. Does that mean I would need multiple amps to run a 5.1 or 6.1 system? This seems a little pricey, especially I would need 2 or 3 DCX2496's for the signal processing.
I know it seems complicated, but it's actually quite simple, and I will gladly help you in set up through PM or E-mail.

As for expense, well, that depends on your definition of expensive. The A500 amplifiers ( 2 channel ) cost $200.00 shipped each. The DCX units cost $270.00 shipped each. Is around $1140 ( 2 x DCX2496, 3 x A500 ) considered expensive? You would have functionality, versatility and power unmatched by almost anything.

-Chris
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
How about you check yourself first Nick, before you go berating me? You said that just because a speaker can "theoretically" play down to 30hz because it is rated that way, doesn't necessarily mean it can or do it well; which I understand. We all know how data can be manipulated. I was merely trying to inform you that I had actually tested my speakers with the Rives disk and a Radio Shack SPL meter. How the hell am I way off base?!?!? Are you trying to tell me that using the Rives CD to generate a tone and measuring that tone with an SPL meter is pointless or inaccurate? I'm not going by what my ears tell me. I'm going by what the SPL meter said.

So if you took my statement to be defensive, I'm sorry, but you misunderstood my comment. I think you're the one that's way off base. So get off my back. You're the one that got all defensive for NO reason.

Originally Posted by Nick250
If you have a good sub, you may find that it does a better job of reproducing sound in the 40Hz to the 80Hz range that your speakers. Just because a speaker can in theory reproduce sound down to 35Hz does not mean it does a very good job of it.

Nick

Thanks for the input Nick, but it's not theory. I tested my VR 2's with the Rives CD.


Upon further review, it seems that your response to my original post is really a different topic unrelated to my post. So at this point I am going to leave it at that.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan

Originally Posted by Nick250
If you have a good sub, you may find that it does a better job of reproducing sound in the 40Hz to the 80Hz range that your speakers. Just because a speaker can in theory reproduce sound down to 35Hz does not mean it does a very good job of it.

Nick

Thanks for the input Nick, but it's not theory. I tested my VR 2's with the Rives CD.


Upon further review, it seems that your response to my original post is really a different topic unrelated to my post. So at this point I am going to leave it at that.
Whatever dude.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
I know it seems complicated, but it's actually quite simple, and I will gladly help you in set up through PM or E-mail.

As for expense, well, that depends on your definition of expensive. The A500 amplifiers ( 2 channel ) cost $200.00 shipped each. The DCX units cost $270.00 shipped each. Is around $1140 ( 2 x DCX2496, 3 x A500 ) considered expensive? You would have functionality, versatility and power unmatched by almost anything.

-Chris
Thanks again Chris. Well when you put it that way, it doesn't seem so bad after all. One thing I'm confused on is, if I purchased that setup, what would I use as a pre-amp? I don't see where I would be able to switch between different sources. And where would the surround sound processing come from? Would I have to buy separate units for those functions as well?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks again Chris. Well when you put it that way, it doesn't seem so bad after all. One thing I'm confused on is, if I purchased that setup, what would I use as a pre-amp? I don't see where I would be able to switch between different sources. And where would the surround sound processing come from? Would I have to buy separate units for those functions as well?
Your existing receiver is probably sufficient. Check the rear of the unit. It probably has a pre-amplifier output for every channel (L, R. SL, SR, C, LF). This is provided for this very purpose ( to send out to external amplifiers and use the receiver as a pre-amp/processor ). The reciever, then, would be your pre-amp and source selector, as well as surround sound decoder.

-Chris
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
Your existing receiver is probably sufficient. Check the rear of the unit. It probably has a pre-amplifier output for every channel (L, R. SL, SR, C, LF). This is provided for this very purpose ( to send out to external amplifiers and use the receiver as a pre-amp/processor ). The reciever, then, would be your pre-amp and source selector, as well as surround sound decoder.

-Chris
I'll check that out. But I have plans to upgrade my receiver anyway, because the 2805 has on HDMI inputs, so I cannot take advantage of lossless audio tracks. So I guess I could just buy an inexpensive receiver that had HDMI, and then use the Behringer components to handle the power and other functions?

One more question: What kind of rack do you put the Behringer stuff in? They all seem to have tabs on the sides that look like they are supposed to bolt on to something.

Thanks again for the info Chris. I'm seriously considering taking your advice. I like that I can buy the components a few pieces at a time and not have to take that $1,000 hit all at once. If I do, I apologize in advance for all the questions I'm going to be bugging you with. :D
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
So I guess I could just buy an inexpensive receiver that had HDMI, and then use the Behringer components to handle the power and other functions?
Yes. The reciever will do all signal processing and send the signals to it's analog pre-outs. After which, the DCX takes over and does the actual crossover/routing/correction(s).

One more question: What kind of rack do you put the Behringer stuff in? They all seem to have tabs on the sides that look like they are supposed to bolt on to something.
You can sit the stuff in a regular audio rack. Or, optionally , you can get pro-audio racks that the gear mounts into with screws.

Thanks again for the info Chris. I'm seriously considering taking your advice. I like that I can buy the components a few pieces at a time and not have to take that $1,000 hit all at once. If I do, I apologize in advance for all the questions I'm going to be bugging you with. :D
I will gladly answer your questions.

-Chris
 
E

edmcanuck

Audioholic
Basically what brought this question up, was the fact that I have speakers with vastly different frequency responses. My fronts are rated to 35hz, the center to 55hz and the rears to 80hz. I believe that I have heard distortion come from my center channel on occasion. I think this might have to do with the fact that my receiver was crossing over all the speakers at 60hz, (I have since changed my crossover to 80hz).
While it may not end up with ideal bass management, you won't get "distortion" from feeding a signal to a speaker that's got more bandwidth than the speaker can reproduce +/-3dB. Full-range signals were being fed into speakers long before receivers ever set crossover points and everything was just fine. If the speaker isn't rated to produce sounds lower than 60Hz then you just won't get sounds lower than 60Hz out of it (yes, you'll get some... just quieter than they're supposed to be). The speaker won't make self-destruction sounds if you feed it a signal that extends to 50Hz. That's one of the big misconceptions that the whole easily-set crossover technology has created.

That said, 80Hz would be the best place to start the crossovers at for obvious reasons: <80Hz is non-directional and bass is usually best produced from different spots than the main speakers are typically found.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
While it may not end up with ideal bass management, you won't get "distortion" from feeding a signal to a speaker that's got more bandwidth than the speaker can reproduce +/-3dB.
At very low listening levels, this would be true. However, a speaker will have increased non-linear behaviour as it's piston movement exceeds the linear limits of it's magnetic gap and/or suspension components. As you reduce the low frequency content going to a speaker, you reduce it's amount of movement, resulting in lowered distortion(s) that occur as a result of these nonlinearities. And at a point, especially with high amplitude bass, the non-linearity can become extremely audible on most small speakers at moderate to high SPLs. Even in the absence of non-linear distortion effects (not a realistic situation), in extreme cases, a speaker can even cause a phase modulation effect, if the cone moves enough to have inter-phase cancellation/summation effects of it's highest frequencies as they emit from different points in space periodically as a result of the low frequency high amplitude components forcing the the small diameter speaker to move substantial amounts when producing moderate to high SPLs. This effect is commonly referred to as Doppler distortion with speakers, although technically Doppler distortion is defined differently. But the reference remains common.

-Chris
 
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darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
At very low listening levels, this would be true. However, a speaker will have increased non-linear behaviour as it's piston movement exceeds the linear limits of it's magnetic gap and/or suspension components. As you reduce the low frequency content going to a speaker, you reduce it's amount of movement, resulting in lowered distortion(s) that occur as a result of these nonlinearities. And at a point, especially with high amplitude bass, the non-linearity can become extremely audible on most small speakers at moderate to high SPLs. Even in the absence of non-linear distortion effects (not a realistic situation), in extreme cases, a speaker can even cause a phase modulation effect, if the cone moves enough to have inter-phase cancellation/summation effects of it's highest frequencies as they emit from different points in space periodically as a result of the low frequency high amplitude components forcing the the small diameter speaker to move substantial amounts when producing moderate to high SPLs. This effect is commonly referred to as Doppler distortion with speakers, although technically Doppler distortion is defined differently. But the reference remains common.

-Chris
Chris, I bow before the altar of your sonic knowledge.

Let me ask you, someone else recommended getting an Emotiva amp instead of multiple Behringer amps. I forgot what the model number was, but he said it was about $500. That would certainly seem to be more convenient. Is that a good way to go?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Chris, I bow before the altar of your sonic knowledge.

Let me ask you, someone else recommended getting an Emotiva amp instead of multiple Behringer amps. I forgot what the model number was, but he said it was about $500. That would certainly seem to be more convenient. Is that a good way to go?
The Emotiva is a nice amplifier. However, consider that the DCX2496 (as well as other pro sound processors ) is going to have balanced XLR outputs with a higher voltage than unbalanced consumer gear. That means you will have to use (1) additional plug adapters, and (2) line attenuators, in order to connect the DCX to the Emotiva or other consumer amplifiers. Not a problem, I can give you links to the adapters if you prefer to go that route. The Emotiva certainly looks nicer than the A500 ( I happen to despise the front plastic fascia ) to me. In addition, you will have less power switches to flip/push. :)

-Chris
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
The Emotiva is a nice amplifier. However, consider that the DCX2496 (as well as other pro sound processors ) is going to have balanced XLR outputs with a higher voltage than unbalanced consumer gear. That means you will have to use (1) additional plug adapters, and (2) line attenuators, in order to connect the DCX to the Emotiva or other consumer amplifiers. Not a problem, I can give you links to the adapters if you prefer to go that route. The Emotiva certainly looks nicer than the A500 ( I happen to despise the front plastic fascia ) to me. In addition, you will have less power switches to flip/push. :)

-Chris
Can you give me those links Chris? Yeah, that Emotiva amp is a beautiful looking piece. I actually like the look of the A500 better than the DCX.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Can you give me those links Chris? Yeah, that Emotiva amp is a beautiful looking piece. I actually like the look of the A500 better than the DCX.
12 db attenuators (use these on the output channels only):

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=266-244

You would need one Female XLR to Female RCA for every output channel, and one male XLR to female XLR for each input to the DCX.

http://www.audiogear.com/Audio-Adapters-Xlr.html

Alternatively, you can use a conversion box for the output channels instead of the adapters and attenuators. Each box has 2 channels. Note: I have never used this conversion box, and as a result, I do not know if it has an audible noise floor (hiss).

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CleanBox/

-Chris
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
12 db attenuators (use these on the output channels only):

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=266-244

You would need one Female XLR to Female RCA for every output channel, and one male XLR to female XLR for each input to the DCX.

http://www.audiogear.com/Audio-Adapters-Xlr.html

Alternatively, you can use a conversion box for the output channels instead of the adapters and attenuators. Each box has 2 channels. Note: I have never used this conversion box, and as a result, I do not know if it has an audible noise floor (hiss).

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CleanBox/

-Chris
Thanks Chris. Wow, it's getting complicated again. I think that if I end up doing this, I'm going to need you to write me an itemized list of what I need to buy, and then draw me a schematic of how to hook everything up. :)
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks Chris. Wow, it's getting complicated again. I think that if I end up doing this, I'm going to need you to write me an itemized list of what I need to buy, and then draw me a schematic of how to hook everything up. :)
No problem.

BTW, it stays simple if you use the A500 amps, since they have direct XLR balanced inputs. :)

-Chris
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
No problem.

BTW, it stays simple if you use the A500 amps, since they have direct XLR balanced inputs. :)

-Chris
Yeah, but to do 6.1 with the A500's I'd need 4 at $200 a pop, ($800) Where I can get 1 Emotiva for $500, plus the cost of those adapters you mentioned. Plus, I think I would prefer to limit the number of components to as few as possible. I'm going to need 3 DCX's as it is. With a receiver, DVD players, etc., that is going to be one full AV rack.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Yeah, but to do 6.1 with the A500's I'd need 4 at $200 a pop, ($800) Where I can get 1 Emotiva for $500, plus the cost of those adapters you mentioned. Plus, I think I would prefer to limit the number of components to as few as possible. I'm going to need 3 DCX's as it is. With a receiver, DVD players, etc., that is going to be one full AV rack.
Well, it would be 3 A500s, not 4. Each A500 has 2 channels. 3 would give you six channels. Your .1 is the subwoofer, which has it's own internal amplifier.

With the price of the Emotiva, I would probably pick it as well, for that number of channels, and considering it's superior cosmetics. :)



-Chris
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
Well, it would be 3 A500s, not 4. Each A500 has 2 channels. 3 would give you six channels. Your .1 is the subwoofer, which has it's own internal amplifier.

With the price of the Emotiva, I would probably pick it as well, for that number of channels, and considering it's superior cosmetics. :)



-Chris
Whoops. For some reason, I was thinking I needed a channel for the .1. DUH! :rolleyes: Hmmm... Well that changes things again then. Because to go with the Emotiva, after buying the connectors and stuff, it will be more money than 3 A500's. But there are the aesthetics to think about. I assume that you can connect the A500's together so that hitting the power switch on one will turn them all on? The same with the DCX's?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Whoops. For some reason, I was thinking I needed a channel for the .1. DUH! :rolleyes: Hmmm... Well that changes things again then. Because to go with the Emotiva, after buying the connectors and stuff, it will be more money than 3 A500's. But there are the aesthetics to think about. I assume that you can connect the A500's together so that hitting the power switch on one will turn them all on? The same with the DCX's?
You have to turn the pro gear mentioned above on/off one at a time.

-Chris
 
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