External Amp Makes a BiIG Difference

[PENG]

AFAIK, you've said that IT DID AND STILL DOES SOUND TIGHTER WITH A POWER AMP, right?

So, what's this deal is all about, BTW? IMO, you're maybe expecting too much from your system, who knows??

Yes it does sound tighter with the amp and that's one of the reasons I left the amp connected. I have no regrets neither, just that I am not done until my current upgrade plan is complete. I like my amps but they are not making enough difference for me, at least not after I auditioned the B&W802D. Even the 803S would be an upgrade for me. They used the same amp (a little more power though) that I have. I think the sweet spot in my upgrade plan is the speakers. Obviously it may be different in your case.

To answer your questions, my Energy veritas 2.3i are not that sensitive, 87dB, nominal 8 ohms minimum 4 ohms but the 3805 can handle them quite well. I do expect more and as mentioned, I think I am about half way through my upgrade path. My priority will be speakers, preamp (I think my Adcom GFP565 may be a weak link), then back to the amp one more time and that will be it.

You have a great Easter weekend too, and enjoy your improved sound.

 

[awesomebase]

Digital Amps = No Heat

Rotel has a couple of digital amps that produce an impressive amount of power and little to no heat. They also take up considerably less space and, unlike regular amplifiers are much more efficient in producing the power that is consumed (hence little to no heat). It uses ICE technology and the sound is impressive! I'm planning on getting one for my home theater when I'm done with the basement. Not only does it take the load off of the receiver, but it does a beautiful job of reproducing the sound. Only catch is it is not the cheapest of receivers... I think the 7-channel one I was hearing was ~$2500. Granted it saves space and definitely made a difference in the sound I was hearing, but maybe these high-end audio places rig it that way... who knows. It is worth considering though... and you'll be utterly surprised at how much sound it can produce being about half the size of a regular amp... also the quality of the sound is very, very good!

 

[UFObuster]

Yes it does sound tighter with the amp and that's one of the reasons I left the amp connected. I have no regrets neither, just that I am not done until my current upgrade plan is complete. I like my amps but they are not making enough difference for me, at least not after I auditioned the B&W802D. Even the 803S would be an upgrade for me. They used the same amp (a little more power though) that I have. I think the sweet spot in my upgrade plan is the speakers. Obviously it may be different in your case.

As the thread developed, it confirms my impression that there are a lot of variables in different mixes of components and especially with speaker selection as to whether or not adding separate amp(s) is an improvement or not. I still suspect that more often than not, addition of a quality outboard amp with generous power always improves a system relying solely on a 5.1 receiver especially in 5 channel mode. I also think that there is more to this than just getting enough rated amps into the setup. I don't think it's always subjective either. It's just that the reason for a detectable improvement may be for one or more highly technical reasons not easy to spot or figure out unless you've got a degree in EE.
The only sure way to know if it helps your system is to get one and try it out. That's what I did and it worked well for me.

BTW: DVD tip: Santana and Shorter--re-recorded in DTS 96/24.
Happy Easter holiday.

Roger

 

[Duffinator]

The only sure way to know if it helps your system is to get one and try it out. That's what I did and it worked well for me.

That's what I did, first with the Adcom and then the Denon. I wish it had worked as well for me but it didn't. But I'm keeping the external amp anyway.

 

[Nick250]

I would suggest that the one of the things we do know is that room treatments almost always make a really big improvement in SQ and that more amplification is much less significant by comparison. I scanned the thread and I don't think this has been addressed. Apologies if it has and yeah, I know I have been a broker record on this topic.

Nick

 

[mnnc]

Well, while I am sitting around doing not much of anything I must say that in my case adding a dedicated pwr amp made a difference in overall sound. I listen to music in stereo most of the time(2.1)and cd's that I am intimately familiar w/ have taken on new life. My recv'r in it's own right has great sound and received nothing but high marks. Having added an amp has made it even better sounding. Not to say that everyone will experience an improvement but I would say the chances are greater that there will be an improvement rather than not. Lots of Denon owners here and don't get me wrong, great product, but a friend has a 3802 and added an amp for the front end and wow! I owned Denon back in the late eighties for stereo only long before ht products became the norm and they sounded very good. All I know is that the difference I experienced was instant. Sound had more finesse, power, tightness, clarity. But remember, the listening was based on music I am very familiar w/ and have listened to for years. Many genres I might add from S. Dan-D Dregs, Shakira to Slayer! Much exposure to the music world...no blinders/one style here. Be critical in your listening as sometimes it takes patience to realize things are better. And remember, it is ultimately up to the individual as to what sounds better or not to him or her.

 

[Malice]

Hi Gang, I haven't been posting here a lot but I'm still hanging here almost daily.

Anyway I got a new to me Denon POA-2800 2x200 wpc amp with two speaker outputs to do a sort of bi-amp bi-wire setup. I'm running this from my Denon AVR-3805 into my Monitor Audio S6 towers. I could not believe the difference this made to my system especially for music. The sound is much stronger, more detailed and dynamic. I know there's plenty of debate if one amp sounds better than another but in this case it's huge! I know Mulester will be happy to know I get a big bad amp added to my system. Wow what a difference it made! Here's some pictures of the amp.

Are you running a 5.1 or 7.1 set up? If the former, did you try the 3805 bi-amping "trick" that's covered somewhere in these forums before buying external amplification?

I had done this "trick" a while ago, and I must have been one of the fortunate ones who did not get any hum in looping the main-pre-outs to an analogue input. The performance difference was noticeable immediately: tighter and punchier bass for want of better expressions.

Then I bought extra speakers for a 7.1 set up so I was no longer able to bi-amp. I liked the 7.1 so much more than 5.1 that I have been looking for a way to best introduce external amplification so I could bi-amp my fronts and yet retain 7.1

Unfortunately on the 3805 when you assign the Power Amps away from the surround back (which you have to do for the bi-amping "trick"), all surround back processing is lost, so it is impossible to use external amplification for the surround backs.

So if I wanted to bi-amp my mains, I would either have one of two options:
(1) buy a multi-channel amp (say 5@120W) and use two each for the L + R (bi-amp) and the fifth for the center.
(2) Buy a two channel amp and integrate it with the 3805 onboard amps to bi-amp the fronts only.

As funds are tight, option (1) seemed an expensive option: option (2) seemed a challenge to find an amp with the same output and gain.

One of the factors contributing to an improvement in SQ using bi-amp approach as opposed to plain external amplification via a two channel amp, is that with bi-amping the front drivers, the back EMF from each of the drivers is isolated from each other as the bass and tweeter drivers are attached to different amplifiers. (EDIT: Note having A-B speakers attached in a bi-wire set up is not bi-amping. A-B speakers share the same amplifier output so there is no bi-amping benefit to be gained be deploying a 2 channel amp with "2 sets of speaker terminals")

In the end I took a chance and purchased a secondhand Denon POA-T10 power amp, which on paper has the same power as the 3805, and the 3805 appears to have the same line output voltage as the AVC-10SE which the POA-T10 was partnered with.

So I set up the POA-T10 and 3805 to bi-amp the fronts using the 3805 amps to drive the tweeters and the T10 to drive the bass units.

To check whether using the Main pre-outs and T10 would work in terms of adding no delay and would be at the right level, I first used the T10 to drive both the tweeters and bass drivers and then ran the auto set up on the amp.

The delay (distance) was exactly the same as when using only the 3805's amps and the level was about 1db lower than the 3805 amps (i.e. the level in the "levels" set up screen was 1db lower, so the T10 was apparently only 1db louder). So I then bi-amped and re-ran the auto setup. Distances remained the same and the levels increased by just 0.5 db, presumably to compensate for the 1db less powerful 3805 amps. So a result! The T10 is a perfect match to bi-amp my fronts in tandem with the 3805! SO best of both worlds on the 3805: cost effective external amplification AND bi-amping AND 7.1 sound.

 

[Duffinator]

5.1 Only

Malice,

Im running a 5.1 setup and have no interest in turning it into 7.1. As I stated earlier I try and optimize my system for music first over HT. I do not listen to my system at reference levels, at least very often, when watching movies. Maybe a concert DVD will get cranked up and my typical volume setting while watching movies is beteen -18 and -22. In two channel direct mode -18 is pretty loud. At least my wife thinks so.

I did use the internal bi-amp with the 3805 and ran it that way for over a year with no hum. You can read my several posts on the topic here on AH. Then the hum started so I stopped it. My Denon POA-2800 is 200wpc into 8 ohms. The A/B speaker terminals are in serial so while this is not a true bi-amp setup it should provide a similar effect. So it is bi-wired and with lots more power in reserve than the 3805 it should be fine. When I first did the bi-amp I also thought the bass was tighter and liked the result. But after listening to it for over a year and then reverting back I didn't notice any difference. My main motivation of bi-amping or wiring is the whole back EMF argument and I've read several articles on the subject. My Monitor Audio S6 towers are not difficult to drive. I do think there is an improvement but it is very slight. Worth the money to me? I guess it is as I'm keeping the amp and my setup the way it is. I wanted to try it, I did, and there wasn't a big difference that I can hear.

I'm probably not as critical a listener as some of you but I do try and listen for differences. I find it difficult to hear differences in similar amps, receivers, and CD/DVD players. But I do hear differences in similar speakers.

 

[Duffinator]

Two fans no more heat!

PC fans are pretty weak (which is why they're quiet) they're not gonna be able to move a lot of air unless it was in a confined space like a PC casing. you'll know when you fire them up.

I believe that it will be better for your receiver if you prevent it from building up heat in the first place, rather than waiting for the heatsinks to heat up, then the heat that goes up will also heat the top casing, which should also conduct heat back to the other parts of the receiver.

Got my fans connected yesterday and was amazed how two little fans could cool my amps down so quickly. I originally wanted to blow the air over the amps and out the front of my alcove. But I placed one fan on top of my receiver and amp like you suggested with some little platic feet so I wouldn't scratch the tops of the amps. The power supply I purchased has settings for various voltage from 3 to 12 volts. I used it on 6 volts so the fans did not make too much noise. Within minutes the temperatures dropped about 20 degrees to the touch and a few hours later the receiver was not even warm. The amp was still a bit warm, meaning you could feel some heat, but much cooler and nothing to worry about. All of this cost me about $20.

 

[mike c]

that's great duff!

 

[indcrimdefense]

i have tried numerous combinations of power amps, using either a receiver as a pre-pro or later using an anthem avm30, & have listed the results in previous posts. recently purchased cary audio 500 MB monoblocks for my front sig 8 speakers, which replaced a krell kav 2250, & it was a substantial improvement, for both music & movies. the krell now runs my sig adp surrounds, until i figure out what i'm going to use as center channel speakers & probably will buy a multichannel amp at that time, or maybe just a 2 channel amp to run the front center speakers. however in the past tried alot of amps which made little difference, or more often the difference in performance was not worth the additional purchase price of the amp. the key if possible is to try before you buy to see if adding an external amp make a difference to your ears in your system.

with the cary 500, the improvement is larger dynamics, virtually unlimited headroom, and much more body to the music than with the krell. i have swapped the krell back in several times, & also demoed the cary amps twice before purchase, & the difference was immediately noticeable & not subtle. the krell just lacks the ummpphh of the cary on large dynamic swings, & there is no comparison for movies, some movies in dts about make me jump out of my seat, even when i have seen the movie before & know what is coming.

 

[Seth=L]

i have tried numerous combinations of power amps, using either a receiver as a pre-pro or later using an anthem avm30, & have listed the results in previous posts. recently purchased cary audio 500 MB monoblocks for my front sig 8 speakers, which replaced a krell kav 2250, & it was a substantial improvement, for both music & movies. the krell now runs my sig adp surrounds, until i figure out what i'm going to use as center channel speakers & probably will buy a multichannel amp at that time, or maybe just a 2 channel amp to run the front center speakers. however in the past tried alot of amps which made little difference, or more often the difference in performance was not worth the additional purchase price of the amp. the key if possible is to try before you buy to see if adding an external amp make a difference to your ears in your system.

with the cary 500, the improvement is larger dynamics, virtually unlimited headroom, and much more body to the music than with the krell. i have swapped the krell back in several times, & also demoed the cary amps twice before purchase, & the difference was immediately noticeable & not subtle. the krell just lacks the ummpphh of the cary on large dynamic swings, & there is no comparison for movies, some movies in dts about make me jump out of my seat, even when i have seen the movie before & know what is coming.

Were these tests done with high SPLs? Are your tests DB? I am not trying to start crap, just curious.

 

[PENG]

Were these tests done with high SPLs? Are your tests DB? I am not trying to start crap, just curious

Hey Seth, remember you are talking to indcrimdefense!

 

[indcrimdefense]

don't you guys remember i'm deaf?? all kidding aside, i appreciate the expertise of the other members, & admit that double blind testing has it's place. unfortunately properly conducting a db test at home is impossible alone, & i have already tested more than one friendship trying to have friends assist with it. i report on my observations, you are free to accept them or reject them as you see fit. but unless you have actually listened to the difference between a cary 500 MB & another amplifier...

 

[Seth=L]

I can understand their being a difference once a certain volume is reached, but amplifiers based on the same topoligy should sound almost, if not completely identical within their restrictions.

 

[highfihoney]

i report on my observations, you are free to accept them or reject them as you see fit. but unless you have actually listened to the difference between a cary 500 MB & another amplifier...

Words to live by

 

[Nick250]

Were these tests done with high SPLs? Are your tests DB? I am not trying to start crap, just curious.

This very scary, Seth is turning into Mtry. I'm with you on this one Seth.

Nick

 

[Seth=L]

This very scary, Seth is turning into Mtry. I'm with you on this one Seth.

Nick

To be straight, I am not attacking his position. I just want his take and honest belief on the subject.

 

[wire]

To be straight, I am not attacking his position. I just want his take and honest belief on the subject.

I think he just said his belief .

 

[dave1490]

don't you guys remember i'm deaf?? all kidding aside, i appreciate the expertise of the other members, & admit that double blind testing has it's place. unfortunately properly conducting a db test at home is impossible alone, & i have already tested more than one friendship trying to have friends assist with it. i report on my observations, you are free to accept them or reject them as you see fit. but unless you have actually listened to the difference between a cary 500 MB & another amplifier...

ever listened to your favorite music till the thermal breaker clicked and then notice your ears are ringing