Denon comparable with seperate?

J

Jake123

Enthusiast
Hello everybody! Last year, went and bought a sony tv and five paradigm speakers(monitor 7, cc370, titan for surround) and a Kenwood receiver to start off what i though would be a excellent home theater that ive been dreaming about for a long long time! Not bad for movies but for stereo listening or multichanel music, i was kinda disapointed. I just can't put my finger on it, I don't think it is my speakers or maybe it is? Maybe it was the lack of power to the speakers(6*100watt) or what i think is just a very low budget receiver (350 canadian dollars). Anyway, my wife has granted me another chance at this expensive passion of mine and this time I want to make things right. I have been reading like crazy about almost every thing concerning home theatre with their reviews and their spec and upcoming thechnology and so on... I like what i see in the upcoming Denon line up(especially the 4308ci). But being an real avid music listener, will the Denon be good enough? I want to have it for home theater too, of course! I can go with Hi end seperates but without the nice and useful technology Denon has, especially the HDMI 1.3. Does anyone know if the preamp of Denon 2807 is the same has the 4306? Then i could pay alot less for the receiver and put some money on real power... Maybe an outlaw amp or Rotel. Would this make the Denon sound better having more power? I know Denon makes very good receiver but if i spend another 3000$ to 4000$ on this home theatre again it has to be the best bang for buck possible!!!! Please can anyone help me with this? :confused:
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
Hello,

It's hard for anyone to tell you what's missing in your system that your un-happy with. But from reading your post I would say it these

monitor 7's

Not your receiver.
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
If your receiver has pre/outs you can add an amp to see if you can hear a difference.

The problem with this is most of the time, the mind wants to hear a difference, and tells the ears you did, when you really didn't.

I would first before anything is add a inexpensive amp if you don't think it's the speakers.

Also room acoustics play a very large role in what your system sounds like. Do you have any acoustic panels?
 
J

Jake123

Enthusiast
No no I just have a normal living room and its well furnished so it not too bright or boomy. I dont think so anyway. Don't have any pre outs either except for sub and surround back. Maybe your right about me not wanting to hear that things are not all that bad but it still seems i want better. :rolleyes:
 
J

Jake123

Enthusiast
Shouln't monitor 7 be a pretty good speaker, I mean it is paradigm afterall?
 
jcPanny

jcPanny

Audioholic Ninja
Paradigm Studio

Consider upgrading your mains and center channel to the Paradigm studio line. To make it more affordable, check out slightly used speakers on Audiogon or see if you dealer has a trade in/upgrade program.

Spending $1k on used Studio 20's and Studio center and possible $1k on a receiver should provide a much better sonic upgrade. If you don't have a good sub, add that to the upgrade list.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Shouln't monitor 7 be a pretty good speaker, I mean it is paradigm afterall?
Many people think because something is Sony it must be good... or it must be bad (depending on who you are).

Not all speakers are good for everyone and a good speaker still isn't going to be right for all environments. I tend to believe that most speakers in the world are very good - but you need them in the right space and setup correctly. So, while you can upgrade the receiver and likely get a bit more clarity and quality overall, I would bet that if you are unhappy with things it may have a lot more to do with room acoustics, speaker placement, and the speakers vs. the receiver.

ON THE OTHER HAND: Having a good A/V receiver pretty much ensures that this part won't be an issue and Denon/Yamaha/Pioneer tend to be top flight with most of their mid-level and higher products.

That is, it sure won't hurt to have a better receiver, especially if it IS the speakers because if you are going to upgrade the speakers you will want to be able to match them with solid power.

STORY: I started with my Kenwood HTIB from Sam's Club. Cost me a few hundred bucks and was fine for a year or so until I could upgrade. When I upgraded I put in some Definitive Technology BP-30 speakers (big floorstanders) and because I didn't have the new receiver (Yamaha Z1) I just plugged it into the Kenwood. The sound quality jump was phenomenal. I really couldn't believe how much of a difference some serious floor standing speakers made with the same junkie receiver that I had been using all along.

My advice: If you are buying on a budget and can only do one thing, then I would go with speakers over receiver most likely and I would look to stores with liberal return policies. Don't just randomly buy online as this will likely leave you wondering if there was something better you could have purchased. It also means that if you buy speakers and feel you got no improvement, that you can return them and invest in a receiver upgrade (or vice-versa).
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
As others have indicated, the receiver has very little to do with sound quality. Jcpanny mentions the Paradigm Studio 20's which I have and love, but before making any decisions, head out with your favorite CD and audition as many speakers as you can that are in your price range.

Nick
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
No no I just have a normal living room and its well furnished so it not too bright or boomy. I dont think so anyway. Don't have any pre outs either except for sub and surround back. Maybe your right about me not wanting to hear that things are not all that bad but it still seems i want better. :rolleyes:
NO way,dont buy into all that,while accoustic treatments do help tune a room they are not for everybody nor are they needed in every case,if your living room is well furnished,not boomy or bright then they are not a fix for your problem.

Also dont get too caught up in all the "you just think you hear a difference stuff",while alot of it is true it is taken to the extreme by many,your impressions of how your system sounds are way more important over any theory that will be passed around these web forums,in other words if it sounds like a turd then it is a turd.

Your first thoughts are that your pleased with how your speakers sound & more likely than not your first impression is accurate,you dont need a ton of hifi know how or experience to know the sound that your ears like best.

What your describing is dull,flat & lifeless music,am i correct?

The whole thing that is making your music sound like crap is the preamp & processing section of your reciever not the amplifier section of the reciever,adding an amplifier (if you could) to your existing reciever would only give you louder crappy sounding music,roughly 99% of the sound quality comming from your reciever is being reproduced through the pre/pro section of the reciever not the amp section,the amp section merely amplifies the signal from the preamp.

Keep in mind that budget recievers are built to a price point,they are designed to do as many functions as possible for the lowest possible cost & controls are incorporated in order to save build cost,the preset settings like bass management & eq are a must for the home theater experience to sound right but they are not whats needed for music.

I'd be willing to bet that dumping your current budget all in one reciever in favor of a seperate pre/pro amplifier combo will do wonders for your music experience,buying new speakers will leave you with different sounding music but it will still be dull & lifeless sounding.

If you can live without hdmi there are a ton of options that will serve your music/home theater needs far better.

Hook this puppy up to the amp of your choice & it'll blow away the sound from 99% of the recievers on the market.This pre/pro has seperate controls for music & home theater plus it has a built in am fm tuner,all you'd need would be the amp of your choice & it will only be worth more as the years go by instead of becomming valueless in a few short years.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1181999583
 
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mr-ben

mr-ben

Audioholic
...for stereo listening or multichanel music, i was kinda disapointed. I just can't put my finger on it, I don't think it is my speakers or maybe it is? Maybe it was the lack of power to the speakers(6*100watt) or what i think is just a very low budget receiver (350 canadian dollars).

I'd personally start by making sure that the + and - terminals match up on all the speaker wires before replacing anything. A mismatch can make things sound 'off'. If they're correct, try to find a friend or store that will allow you to take a reciever home that you've listened to, is in your price range, and you like. If you can't borrow it, a 30-day no-hastle refund policy works too, or you could take your amp there. Try it out, compare it to yours, see if it sounds better. Then try the same thing with two speakers in your price range. Both will likely improve the sound, but one will improve it more. Don't try to assume it's one or the other ahead of time - you don't know, and neither do I. Perhaps it will all sound the same and you can save yourself some money.

This is the approach that I always take. I'll usually buy something with a full return policy, put it in, spend some quality time over a few weeks, and compare the old with the new to see if it's worth the cost to me. I don't think you can go wrong with this approach.
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
NO way,dont buy into all that,while accoustic treatments do help tune a room they are not for everybody nor are they needed in every case,if your living room is well furnished,not boomy or bright then they are not a fix for your problem.
I disagree. Every room can benefit from some sort acoustic treatment. It could be acoustic panels or bass traps, or both. And they do effect what you hear from your system.

I'm not saying this is his problem. I'm just stating acoustics are very important.
 
C

cfrizz

Senior Audioholic
I would purchase the lowest priced Denon that has all the features you want with preouts & then get a 200wpc 5-7 channel amp. Your choices for amps are endless. Rotel, Parasound, Outlaw Adcom, NAD, Sunfire etc.

If you don't mind used, check out Audiogon for any of these brands.

The biggest improvement I made to my system was adding a Parasound 205wpc 2 chnl amp. I loved it so much, I now have a Sunfire 405wpc 5 channel amp for all my speakers & just use my Denon for a prepro.

I don't expect to have to ever get another amp, but I might eventually get a separate prepro in place of the Denon.

Good luck & let us know what you end up getting.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
I'm not saying this is his problem. I'm just stating acoustics are very important.
I agree but room treatments will never take any system from sounding like crap to the point the sound is perfect,room treatments are for fine tuning a system.
 
I

indcrimdefense

Audioholic
over 2 years ago i was where you were, i went out & bought all new speakers (klipsch reference) along with a denon 2805 receiver & 2910 universal all within several months, & also cables, etc. etc. however i was never completely happy with my system, so i started tinkering, getting demos of this & that, swapping components, etc. 2 years & alot of $$$ later, i am much happier with my system, but still incensed that i spent alot of $$$ in the beginning before i really knew what i was doing.

first, try & find a dealer who will let you demo components before you buy, or as a much less attractive alternative buy from someplace with a liberal return policy. the following is based on my experience of home demos over the past 2 years, & mixing & matching components in & out of my system. adding a power amplifier to a receiver can make an worthy improvement, it can also make little or no difference at all or in some cases actually sound worse. moving from a receiver to a dedicated pre-pro & a seperate amp made a much bigger difference than simply adding a power amp. i tried rotel, B&K, krell, cary & anthem, & purchased an anthem avm30. from a music quality standpoint, i would highly recommend a cary 6 which is no longer in production & would have to be purchased used or an anthem. the b&k i tried was only a stereo pre-amp, as was the rotel. the rotel pre-amp, amp & cd player did not play well with klipsch speakers, but i have heard same set up sound acceptable with other speakers. there are other pre-pros which could be used as well, as well as being purchased used if a budget requires it. also look around for trade ins & demos at dealers to save some $.

other significant improvements were using a cary dvd7 with xlr analog outputs or even better a cary 303/300 with xlr outputs. i have only demoed a 303 but intend on buying one unless i can find a universal player that does everything i want, which at this point i have all but given up on. this is not to say that similar improvements could not be had with other companies products, the rega apollo & saturn players both get stellar reviews for example. feeding any digital source into my avm 30 has never sounded as good as feeding an analog source & using the analog direct setup for music, & using the DVD7 xlr was a significant improvement over my current DVD6, & the 303 was an even more significant improvement over the DVD7.

if your going to feed a digital signal into your receiver/pre-pro, you can save some money on what cd or universal player you buy or use.

another option if it's only a music issue, would be to buy a stereo pre-amp with a cinema bypass, use it for 2 channel music with a seperate power amp & a receiver for movies to power all the other speakers. this is something i have yet to try but am starting to look into it, but have yet to actually demo a stereo pre-amp with my anthem avm30.

after over 2 years, my system is now: anthem avm30 pre-pro, cary dvd6, cary 500 mb monoblocks for front paradigm sig 8, krell ksa 2250 for paradigm sig adp surrounds. will soon replace the dvd6 with a dedicated cd player & seperate dvd player, or hopefully will find a universal that does it all in one box. also going to add 2 center channels & stereo amp to run them, or may move the krell out & get a multichannel amp for centers & surrounds. eventually will probably add a sub but it's last on the list.

after alot of demos, alot of shopping, each new component has made a marked improvement in the quality of both music reproduction & movies, but it has taken alot of work, & still alot to do. best way to avoid mistakes to to try at home before you buy if at all possible. if you can tell a difference & are happy with the price, great. if not, your not stuck with a component.
 
davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
I went to sepreates after starting out with a Pioneer Elite receiver. The difference in the sound of my music was stunning. Granted, the Audio Refinement Amp and PrePro were more than doube the cost of the Pioneer, but the sound difference was amazing. For starters I realized that I personally listened to very little Radio. So that was wasted space in a receiver that I didn't need. The psycho stereophiles may be psycho, but they aren't wrong in saying you want as little as possible betweent the source and your speaks.
My sacd and dvda as well as redbook cd playback is awesome.
And my movies look great too. The Denon 3910 was the perfect choice at my price point. I don't care about hdmi 1.3. The cabling I have is just fine.
As for movies, I run all my stuff direct from source to tv. Not sure why everyone is so hot to run through the receiver..........
 
J

Jake123

Enthusiast
Thanks for all the info, something to think about. Although the monitor series is not quite as high end as others, I know i won't be changing those, first of all because of the WAF, second they look rather nice and third they are very good sounding when playing a Dvd whether it be music or movie. This has led me to believe that the source might be the problem not the speakers when playing stereo. The very best thing a guy could do is wait a couple of years till the HDMI 1.3 is on almost every dedicated pre/pros and get one low price at audiogone with a powerful amp.... But i can't wait that long, I want to rock my house soon. I have plenty of wonderful cd's that deserve better than what i have been given them. I'm thinking if i buy a lower price Denon (1000$) With almost all of the same specification as the bigger one and put in a burly power amp(1000$), I'm still well into my budget. I just might get a good 90% of what I'm looking for. Not as high end as a pre/pros but certainly worth considering.

Thank for all comment, feel free to write more comment or suggestion.
jake:eek:
 
mr-ben

mr-ben

Audioholic
I'm thinking if i buy a lower price Denon (1000$) With almost all of the same specification as the bigger one and put in a burly power amp(1000$), I'm still well into my budget. I just might get a good 90% of what I'm looking for. Not as high end as a pre/pros but certainly worth considering.
I get the impression that you really want to get a new pre and power amp. Just get it - it will sound better than what you currently have, and you'll enjoy it. Take a look at some of the reviews on the site - they are not as expensive as you think: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/emotiva-ultra-theater-series
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
Jake,your posts read like you've done some research,thats a good thing,IMO the best thing you could do would be to invest in either a pre/pro or a reciever that has pre outs & is highly acclaimed for its music reproduction,more likely than not if it plays music great it will work excellent for HT use,the thing about HT is that there is alot more going on than with straight music,in HT there are explosions,dialogue & the soundtrack to distract you all the while your main focus is on the movie & not the music,with music there are no distractions or shared attention & short commings are evident.

Another thing,unless hdmi is a must try stretching your budget buying used gear,models just a few years old will sell for pennies on the dollar,buying gear this way allows you to go straight to the top of the line models without paying for the hype of hdmi or some other new gizmo,neither HT or 2 channel has advanced enough within the last 5 years to worry about the latest model whatever,anything touted as being some great advancement in sound is most likely smoke & mirrors.
 
W

WeAreSurrounded

Audioholic
I like what i see in the upcoming Denon line up(especially the 4308ci). But being an real avid music listener, will the Denon be good enough? I want to have it for home theater too, of course! I can go with Hi end seperates but without the nice and useful technology Denon has, especially the HDMI 1.3. Does anyone know if the preamp of Denon 2807 is the same has the 4306? Then i could pay alot less for the receiver and put some money on real power... Maybe an outlaw amp or Rotel. Would this make the Denon sound better having more power? I know Denon makes very good receiver but if i spend another 3000$ to 4000$ on this home theatre again it has to be the best bang for buck possible!!!! Please can anyone help me with this? :confused:
Hi Jake, I have similar speaker setup: Paradigm Monitors 9 , CC 370, but my satellites are Mini Monitors. And they sound great with my Denon 4306 !

Let me tell you that before I had Denon 3803, and 4306 is a big sonic (and functional) improvement ! It is also significantly better than 2807.

The other think I want to mention - your Titans are not good match for Monitors. I guess thay are allright for movies, but you can really tell when listening to 5.1 music !
And I know from experience, as I also use 2 ATOMS as my Surround Back speakers, Mini Monitors are jus beter and compatible with Monitor line.


swK
 
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