What benefits HDMI 1.3 rely on disk?

[davo]

I've been wondering if the benefits of HDMI 1.3 can be realised purely from the hardware, or if the DVD needs to have certain attributes as well to fully acheive these benefits?

For example would a blu-ray DVD look the same veiwed through a HDMI 1.2 setup as it would with a HDMI 1.3 setup. Are the deeper blacks, better colour etc just buried treasure on the Blu-ray disk that we need better technology to make use of, or does the extra information have to be put on the disk so as to acheive the full potential of HDMI 1.3 compared with HDMI 1.2?

Because other wise I might as well get a new setup now with HDMI 1.2 and upgrade again in 6-7 years time to a setup with the 1.3

Anyone's thoughts?

 

[davo]

Surely someone has wondered about this too?

Don't tell me I'm killing myself waiting for a HDMI 1.3 receiver for nothing?

Arrrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhh!!!

 

[mike c]

from my limited understanding of HDMI 1.3:

deeper blacks aren't available in discs or displays yet.

I know the reason I'm waiting is, I'm waiting for one of the formats to win OR a reliable combo player to come out. so, the day I buy a player is the day I buy a receiver.

try to PM MACCA350, he's doing a study on 1.3 he's from Oz too!

 

[MACCA350]

From what I've been able to ascertain, the benefits of HDMI V1.3 are quickly becoming negligible.

As far as audio is concerned there is no reason for v1.3, because the players won't output the RAW bitstream in the same way as DVD players do. Any HD-DVD disc that is mastered as 'advanced content' and any Blu-ray mastered as 'profile v1.1' or higher will not allow the player to output the raw data because different audio streams need to be mixed within the player and the resulting mix output as uncompressed multichannel PCM over either/or HDMI(any version) and Analogue. Discs mastered in this way are becoming the norm to allow for new advanced features.

As far as video is concerned I believe(and someone will correct me if I'm wrong ) that the improvements between older versions and the new HDMI v1.3 are not really visible with todays display technologies. It seems that the abilities of the data transfer methods has exceeded the ability of the displays.

More info on HDMI v1.3
HDMI FAQ's

cheers

 

[davo]

Thanks for the posts guys.

It really makes you think that if you upgrade your gear every 5-6 years why you would wait for v1.3.. There aren't any mediums that carry this sort of content at the present or near future anyway.

In some ways it is a relief because its been killing me to watch my present amp die a slow death, while v1.3 has been slow to market - for good reason. (there IS no content)

I shall continue my new amp purusing with renewed vigor.

 

[kenhoeve]

the only reason for v1.3 for us audio folk is the high def audio formats(significantly higher audio bitrates). however, that is only at the dvd player because as previously mentioned the newer formats will only transmit as uncompressed PCM, so the receiver has nothing to do with it. I recently updated the firmware on my Tosh xa2 to be hdmi 1.3 compatible so ostensibly I have true-hd on something like Superman Returns. Sounded sweet before, still does. I dunno.

moral, not much need for hdmi 1.3 rcvrs at this point.

 

[solomr2]

I've been wondering if the benefits of HDMI 1.3 can be realised purely from the hardware, or if the DVD needs to have certain attributes as well to fully acheive these benefits?

For example would a blu-ray DVD look the same veiwed through a HDMI 1.2 setup as it would with a HDMI 1.3 setup. Are the deeper blacks, better colour etc just buried treasure on the Blu-ray disk that we need better technology to make use of, or does the extra information have to be put on the disk so as to acheive the full potential of HDMI 1.3 compared with HDMI 1.2?

Because other wise I might as well get a new setup now with HDMI 1.2 and upgrade again in 6-7 years time to a setup with the 1.3

Anyone's thoughts?

HDMI 1.3 doubles the bandwidth of 1.2. I believe only the highest frame rates of 1080p need 1.3's higher bandwidth. However, the extra bandwidth benefits the audio more than the video. The big news for HDMI 1.3 is Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD Master Audio. Both are 100% lossless audo compression, and I believe TrudHD can handle up to 14 discreet, simultaneous audio channels (not sure about DTS-HD).

This is one of the main reasons why I'm hoping for Blue Ray to squash HD-DVD, because the higher capacity of BD will be able to carry better sound, if nothing else.

 

[solomr2]

Thanks for the posts guys.

It really makes you think that if you upgrade your gear every 5-6 years why you would wait for v1.3.. There aren't any mediums that carry this sort of content at the present or near future anyway.

In some ways it is a relief because its been killing me to watch my present amp die a slow death, while v1.3 has been slow to market - for good reason. (there IS no content)

I shall continue my new amp purusing with renewed vigor.

But there is content. There are already BD and HD DVDs hitting the market with Dolby TrueHD encoding, which can only be played in full via HDMI 1.3 capable receivers.

 

[solomr2]

the only reason for v1.3 for us audio folk is the high def audio formats(significantly higher audio bitrates). however, that is only at the dvd player because as previously mentioned the newer formats will only transmit as uncompressed PCM, so the receiver has nothing to do with it. I recently updated the firmware on my Tosh xa2 to be hdmi 1.3 compatible so ostensibly I have true-hd on something like Superman Returns. Sounded sweet before, still does. I dunno.

moral, not much need for hdmi 1.3 rcvrs at this point.

As I understand it, if your receiver is not hdmi 1.3 (as well as you DVD player) then you can't benefit from TrueHD, however TrueHD also has regular Dolby 5.1 embedded, so your receiver will simply step-down.

 

[MACCA350]

Anyone bother to read the audio section of my previous post? There is no reason to have HDMI v1.3 for audio, at the player or the receiver.

As far as audio is concerned there is no reason for v1.3, because the players won't output the RAW bitstream in the same way as DVD players do. Any HD-DVD disc that is mastered as 'advanced content' and any Blu-ray mastered as 'profile v1.1' or higher will NOT allow the player to output the raw data because different audio streams need to be mixed within the player and the resulting mix output as uncompressed multichannel PCM over either/or HDMI(any version) and Analogue. Discs mastered in this way are becoming the norm to allow for new advanced features.

cheers

 

[no. 5]

I believe only the highest frame rates of 1080p need 1.3's higher bandwidth.

For when two million pixels refreshed at sixty times a second isn’t enough.

HDMI v1.3 will also allow 48-bit color depth, whereas previous HDMI specs were only up to 24-bit. aaaaand HDTV broadcasts are in 8-bit color depth.

 

[mike c]

Anyone bother to read the audio section of my previous post? There is no reason to have HDMI v1.3 for audio, at the player or the receiver.


cheers

But there is content. There are already BD and HD DVDs hitting the market with Dolby TrueHD encoding, which can only be played in full via HDMI 1.3 capable receivers.

so this isn't accurate MACCA?

 

[MACCA350]

so this isn't accurate MACCA?

It is true that Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs carry both Dolby TruHD and DTS HD Master Audio, and its true that HDMI v1.3 can transport their RAW bitstream. BUT as I have stated the players wont allow the RAW bitstream to exit the player when playing a 'advanced content HD-DVD or 'profile 1.1'(or higher) Blu-ray, which are/will be the majority of discs. So in reality there is no need for HDMI v1.3 for audio now or in the foreseeable future(things may change but the way the specs are set out for these formats this is not likely)

It must be noted that because the audio is converted(and mixed) within the player and output as multichannel PCM anyone with any version of HDMI can transport this to the receiver digitally w/o loss and(if capable) the receiver can apply bass management, DSP processing, Matrixing, room correction etc in the same way as normal.

So as I've said even if you have a HDMI 1.3 player and receiver you still cant get the RAW bitstream of Dolby TruHD and DTS HD Master Audio to the receiver(with such discs), hence no point in having HDMI 1.3(unless things change)

cheers

 

[mtrycrafts]

aaaaand HDTV broadcasts are in 8-bit color depth.

And, when I update my CRT, only for TV and some low def DVD, I think I will just get a good buy on a 720p.

 

[davo]

So as I've said even if you have a HDMI 1.3 player and receiver you still cant get the RAW bitstream of Dolby TruHD and DTS HD Master Audio to the receiver(with such discs), hence no point in having HDMI 1.3(unless things change)

cheers

I believe Craig Eggers of Dolby Laboratorys mentioned as CES '07 about a bypass mode in the future where the signal can be sent directly to the a/v receiver for processing http://www.audioholics.com/news/trade-show-coverage/2007-consumer-electronics-show-ces/dolby-labs-truehd-and-dolby-volume/videoView
(Thanks for the link Tom)

 

[MACCA350]

I believe Craig Eggers of Dolby Laboratorys mentioned as CES '07 about a bypass mode in the future where the signal can be sent directly to the a/v receiver for processing http://www.audioholics.com/news/trade-show-coverage/2007-consumer-electronics-show-ces/dolby-labs-truehd-and-dolby-volume/videoView
(Thanks for the link Tom)

Yes I thought someone would bring that up, and thats the only mention I've seen anywhere on the web about a bypass. CES was in Nov/Dec last year IIRC and there are no players that will do this yet. Most insiders say that this is not something that is in the pipeline, so I wouldn't hold your breath.

cheers

 

[mfabien]

As I understand it, if your receiver is not hdmi 1.3 (as well as you DVD player) then you can't benefit from TrueHD, however TrueHD also has regular Dolby 5.1 embedded, so your receiver will simply step-down.

I get 5.1 DD TrueHD via 5.1 multichannel analogs with my HD-A1. I have a few movies in DD TrueHD.

Anyone with a receiver incorporating HDMI switching and HDMI Passthrough can have DD TrueHD decoded by the HD DVD player. No need for HDMI 1.3.

Same applies to DTS HD. The DTS HD core is presently enabled with DTS HD MA expected in a future update. HD DVD "Chronos" is in DTS HD core and I have that recording.

 

[davo]

Just doing a bit of casual searching and came across this little exert from the Toshiba HD-XE1 HD DVD player..

"In order to have Deep Color support, a compatible display (and compatible electronics devices in the signal path) must be present and based on HDMI 1.3. Not all HDMI 1.3 displays, AV processing devices and cables will necessarily feature Deep Color support." (Audioholics)

So not even having a HDMI 1.3 setup will give all the benefits. Booooo!

 

[no. 5]

Just doing a bit of casual searching and came across this little exert from the Toshiba HD-XE1 HD DVD player..

"In order to have Deep Color support, a compatible display (and compatible electronics devices in the signal path) must be present and based on HDMI 1.3. Not all HDMI 1.3 displays, AV processing devices and cables will necessarily feature Deep Color support." (Audioholics)

So not even having a HDMI 1.3 setup will give all the benefits. Booooo!

And on top of that, you need a source (i.e. HD broadcast, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray disc) that was recorded in Deep Color; and those don't exist yet.

 

[no. 5]

And, when I update my CRT, only for TV and some low def DVD, I think I will just get a good buy on a 720p.

To quote a line from a movie I haven't seen yet: I like were your head is at!