Denon 4306 or Yamaha RX-V2700

[flea3333]

I'm very indecisive, even over choosing Milky Way or 3 Musketeers. I mean, 3 Musketeers gives you a slightly longer bar by about 1/2-1 inch, but Milky Way has that creamy caramel. How do you decide the weighting factor between extra length and caramel? In any case, I was initially looking at the Denon 2706 but didn't like that it was only 85W or so. I want to have plenty of clean power so that I can watch those movies at movie theater loudness. So then I started being attracted by the MP3 capability of the higher end units. This site has an excellent review on the Yamaha RX-2700. In fact I noticed that the video conversion of the Yamaha had the Denon by 3 points (even though the Denon article said it was the best rating yet).

The most important factor in my decision is clean, powerful sound. The review here also mentioned the sound was "warm" - which I like the sound of. I don't want clean power if its just harsh loudness. The bench tests seem to show the Yamaha has plenty of clean power. I haven't really heard much about how the Denon sounds. That "Pure Direct" mode of the Yamaha sounds kind of neat, but then again, wouldn't you have designed your amp with the proper EMI protection that would reduce crosstalk interference - but it is a way to be sure and a good troubleshooting measure?

The Yamaha has some more advanced features that I think I like but ultimately would have to use to know (the onscreen GUI). The reviews indicate the streaming MP3 has some issues. I don't know that the Denon was any improvement. The biggest problem with the streaming stations (which is a feature I would probably use) is that you can't select the desired bitrate. I do like the measurements from that compressed audio enhancer too on the Yamaha. I'd probably just end up buying one of those wireless mp3 network devices though. I heard some people had issues getting Media Player to recognize the Denon. I don't even use Media player, so I really don't know how much I'd benefit from that. My computer is always connected to my receiver anyway.

The remote of the Denon looks pretty nice too, might prevent me from having to buy the Harmony. It appears lacks in the up conversion but I'm not sure how big a deal that is. I'll probably have only a digital cable box and a 1080p dvd player.

So anyway, given that they are both great amps, is there any evidence that one may provide the warmer, cleaner, more powerful sound I'm looking for. Aside from that, any current users want to share their experience, since ultimately I'd probably enjoy both, it would come down to the dirty little details that would make me say, I should have got the other one. Is there any other amps I should be considering that would be better performance/cost ratio? In other words, am I being over paranoid over the amount of power I'm shooting for? Maybe getting a cheaper HK or the 2706 would make more sense.

 

[Davemcc]

I heard some people had issues getting Media Player to recognize the Denon.

Can you tell me where you heard this? My most frustrating issue right now is that I can't get our new laptop to play music through my Denon 2307 through the computer's SPDIF output. I've tried everything including sending the laptop back to HP for a new sound card install under warranty, on the assumption that since the Denon plays SPDIF from the cable box, it's the computer that's faulty. If there's a Denon related issue with Media Player, I'm hoping you can give me a clue where to start looking.

As to your question of the amps sections of the receivers, I can't speak to the Yamaha at all, but I tried to run my Denon 2307 using an ART SLA-2 200wpc stereo power amp on my mains through the preouts. To be honest, the Denon's internal amp was equal or better than the SLA-2 up to the mid-90 dB level. Subjectively, the Denon had a fuller sound with more punch in the midrange. At higher dB levels, the Denon's internal amp was also less fatiguing than the SLA-2. The point of all this? The Denon has a good amp section that will give good quality full sound at quite loud volume levels, especially if you're looking at the higher models like the 4306. Just my $.02.

 

[Dutchman01]

go for the Denon AVR-4306, i'm sure you wil enjoy this receiver.

streaming audio is not a problem at all.
the whole unit works great and sounds better.
build quality 100% perfect.

 

[Nick250]

This site has an excellent review on the Yamaha RX-2700. In fact I noticed that the video conversion of the Yamaha had the Denon by 3 points (even though the Denon article said it was the best rating yet).
The most important factor in my decision is clean, powerful sound. The review here also mentioned the sound was "warm" - which I like the sound of. I don't want clean power if its just harsh loudness. The bench tests seem to show the Yamaha has plenty of clean power. might prevent me from having to buy the Harmony. It appears lacks in the up conversion but I'm not sure how big a deal that is. I'll probably have only a digital cable box and a 1080p dvd player

Unless one's speakers are especially hard to drive (this happens rarely) the receiver has little impact on sound quality. The "warm vs bright" belief's about receivers is a crock. Buy on features and price. Somewhere around 30% of your total system budget could be allocated to to the amplification.

Nick

 

[flea3333]

Unless one's speakers are especially hard to drive (this happens rarely) the receiver has little impact on sound quality. The "warm vs bright" belief's about receivers is a crock. Buy on features and price. Somewhere around 30% of your total system budget could be allocated to to the amplification.

Nick

Nick,

When you say 30% of system budget do you mean simply receiver and full speaker setup? Another person on the forum recommended 65% on the speakers, which is in line with your ratio. Since I am just beginning to build my future home theater system with the receiver I do want to be sensitive to this. I already have a powered Acoustic Research sub (120W) which I have been happy with and plan to keep. I'd like to get Paradigm speakers, but still am not sure if I'm ready for the price. Also looking at Aeperion. Since Paradigms have been my favorite speakers since I heard their clarity years ago I'd like to get them. However I would probably like to stick to a maximum of $2000 for mains center and rears. With the value of the sub ($300 9 years ago) this would about follow the 65% rule given I purchase one of the amps mentioned above. I don't see how anybody - especially part of this forum - could say the amplifier has little to do with sound quality. The speakers can only reproduce the sound as perfectly as the signal it receives from the amp. That's why you have a Denon and not a Kenwood.

 

[Duffinator]

Unless one's speakers are especially hard to drive (this happens rarely) the receiver has little impact on sound quality. The "warm vs bright" belief's about receivers is a crock. Buy on features and price. Somewhere around 30% of your total system budget could be allocated to to the amplification.

Nick

This is excellent advice. Also considering dropping the level of the receiver you are looking at and use the budget on speakers instead. For example Get a Denon 3806 or 2806 instead of the 4306. I doubt you will hear any difference between the three. If you like Paradigm speakers, I sure do, also look at Monitor Audio speakers. And don't forget the used market on speakers as well. You could save almost 50% and still have speakers that look and sound like new. Look for ones with their original boxes for safe shipping.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I would go with the 3 Musketeers.

 

[flea3333]

Okay, so based on your comments I should not spend the extra $500 or so for some ethernet and video switching features and more power, but go with a sub $1k level receiver such as the Denon 2807. Sounds like ok advice, but can anyone give me some numbers for how many watts I need for a certain size room (with carpet and furniture). That would probably set me in my place instead of listening at 1 quarter loudness all the time.

Greg, you have an RX-V659 with Paradigms, how does that setup work for you?

 

[MDS]

can anyone give me some numbers for how many watts I need for a certain size room (with carpet and furniture). That would probably set me in my place instead of listening at 1 quarter loudness all the time.

What size room? Will you have a powered sub? What is the sensitivity of your speakers? So many variables it is not funny.

One key thing to remember though is the relationship between power (watts) and Sound Pressure Level.

It takes double the power to achieve a roughly +3 dB increase in SPL. That is noticeably louder but not glaringly louder. 'Perceived' loudness is different and depends, again, on lots of factors - it takes between +6 dB and +10 dB (depends on frequency) for the loudness to be perceived as 'twice as loud'. Twice as loud takes almost 10x the power.

This relationship is given by the simple formula: 10 * log(base 10) (P1/P2), so 10*log(100/50) = +3.01 dB; ie doubling the power from 50 watts to 100 watts gives you a paltry +3 dB increase in SPL.

So, don't get too hung up on the difference between an 85 wpc receiver and a 100 wpc receiver. You can achieve an increase in loudness by using more sensitive speakers.

For a typical room size, 100 wpc is plenty and in most cases you will use only a few watts anyway. Only during the extreme transients will the receiver be called upon to deliver a lot more power.

 

[ifozz]

has anyone felt how hot the yamaha 2700 gets? I live in reno for now going to college and work at the Magnolia HT inside of best buy and when it snows outside i go stand by the 2700 and warm my hands!!!!

 

[mike c]

yep it gets hot even when not powering speakers. here in an airconditioned room, it still gets too hot to touch. but nothing a few PC fans can't solve.

 

[Duffinator]

yep it gets hot even when not powering speakers. here in an airconditioned room, it still gets too hot to touch. but nothing a few PC fans can't solve.

My 3805 doesn't get too hot to touch but it will warm your hands on a cold day. I'm going to Fry's at lunch today and check out the fans.

 

[Lu(ky]

I just got my Yamaha 2700 yesterday, and I must say very SOLID A/V receiver. (And it gets really hot too) I have always been a Pioneer guy, but I was leaning towards the Denon 2807. What made me change my mind on the Denon was HDMI 1.1, and 2 inputs for HDMI in. I wanted at least 3 inputs and HDMI and HDMI 1.2a for SACD & DVD-A. For the same price for the Denon I got my Yammy at 1K with no warranty. I figure I saved $600.00 and I live 15 minutes away from Yamaha in Buena Park, CA if it needs repairs I would pay for it. If the repairs do go over $600.00 then it will be my last Yamaha I buy. Everyting went very smoothly when using HDMI no problems at all with it. I do have a problem with my Polk PSW650 sub not working thru the LFE/SUBWOOFER -in- RCA cables. It is my sub not the Yammy I am sure. I am planning on upgrading the F/C/R & sub soon.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

659

I purchased the 659 with intentions of quickly adding an amp but to tell you the truth; I dont think I need one. The 659 drives the heck out of the Paradigms with plenty to spare; it will reach great volumes very cleanly. I will probably still add an amp but I am in no hurry what so ever.

By the way; my HT room is ~8000 cubic feet. I get a kick out of telling everyone that comes by to check out my system that all this sound is coming from a 300 dollar AVR (I guess the sub is lending a helpful hand)

Okay, so based on your comments I should not spend the extra $500 or so for some ethernet and video switching features and more power, but go with a sub $1k level receiver such as the Denon 2807. Sounds like ok advice, but can anyone give me some numbers for how many watts I need for a certain size room (with carpet and furniture). That would probably set me in my place instead of listening at 1 quarter loudness all the time.

Greg, you have an RX-V659 with Paradigms, how does that setup work for you?

 

[rexracer]

I have to agree with Greg. I don't have 8000 ft^3 to fill, but power and volume are never an issue with my setup. Unless you listen at concert level volume (>100db) I don't thing you'll have to worry about WPC on any of these receivers.

 

[flea3333]

What size room? Will you have a powered sub? What is the sensitivity of your speakers? So many variables it is not funny.

One key thing to remember though is the relationship between power (watts) and Sound Pressure Level.

It takes double the power to achieve a roughly +3 dB increase in SPL. That is noticeably louder but not glaringly louder. 'Perceived' loudness is different and depends, again, on lots of factors - it takes between +6 dB and +10 dB (depends on frequency) for the loudness to be perceived as 'twice as loud'. Twice as loud takes almost 10x the power.

This relationship is given by the simple formula: 10 * log(base 10) (P1/P2), so 10*log(100/50) = +3.01 dB; ie doubling the power from 50 watts to 100 watts gives you a paltry +3 dB increase in SPL.

So, don't get too hung up on the difference between an 85 wpc receiver and a 100 wpc receiver. You can achieve an increase in loudness by using more sensitive speakers.

For a typical room size, 100 wpc is plenty and in most cases you will use only a few watts anyway. Only during the extreme transients will the receiver be called upon to deliver a lot more power.

Yes I am aware of this relationship. I'm not being too picky over power, but I agree 100W is probably what I'd like to have to be sure. I'm just surprised to see amp manufacturers going down to 75, 85W, but then again they never used to have 7 channels to drive. So ultimately it sounds like if I get a reliable amp I should focus on the features I want and I should have nothing to worry about.

What do people think of Outlaw Audio as opposed to going with the classic Denon or HK?

 

[flea3333]

has anyone felt how hot the yamaha 2700 gets? I live in reno for now going to college and work at the Magnolia HT inside of best buy and when it snows outside i go stand by the 2700 and warm my hands!!!!

If you read the review that amp burns 70W just sitting idle! So 70W of heat are constantly burning out.

 

[solomr2]

I recently purchased a Pioneer VSX-84TXSi, but the dealer screwed up the order. Long story short, they lent me a Denon AVR-4306 until they can get the Pioneer in. I've now had the Denon for about 2 weeks. I haven't listened to the Yamaha 2700, I was looking at the V1700.

At the moment, the Denon is setup to drive my Def Tech Mythos one towers, Mythos 3 center, Mythos Gems for surround and Def Tech Supercube 2 (powered sub).

Strictly from a sound quality standpoint, I have no complaints at all with the Denon. The 130w are plenty of power and I think I only went over 0db once so far, and even then it was really for testing and not because I want to listen to music that loud. However, I can tell you that I found the Denon to be cleaner than the Yamaha in my samplings when I tested the V1700 against the Denon 2807. The Yamaha seemed to clip a little on some of the more demanding movie sounds and it was noticable in the sub.

From a usability standpoint, the Denon is not the easiest AVR to setup. And I have still yet to figure out how to connect it to my MP3 player or my external 160GB HDD loaded with music. I also couldn't get the auto room eq to work because you have to connect it to an external display just to see the setup options. But if you spend a little time with the owner's manual, and you have your TV connected to it, you should be okay.

From a features standpoint, the Denon seems to be able to do pretty much everything the Pioneer can do. They both support 3 zones, which I specifically need, and they both have 7.1 support. Connectivity is pretty even too, except the Pioneer has 4 vs 3 HDMI inputs. Although the Pioneer has 140w vs 130w, I don't expect to hear the difference. The Pioneer has THX certification, which doesn't mean much of anything. The Pioneer also throws in the iPod dock, whereas Denon charges an extra $60.

From my perspective, the Denon is a great receiver, but overpriced. At $2000 msrp, it is $500 more than the Pioneer's $1500 msrp, but it doesn't seem to offer anything for that extra $500. In fact, the Pioneer seems to have a couple of minor advantages. Comparing prices with the Yamaha, it appears to me the Yamaha is also cheaper than the Denon, so the big question for me would be, what does the Denon do that warrants the extra cash? Either way, I would think any of these 3 receivers are an awesome piece of equipment for any HT setup. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.

But in the end, it's your ears and your wallet that makes the final decision. So take your time, check them out, and maybe even bring one or both home as a loaner so you can take your time playing with it and testing it in your home. It's pretty hard to be test them thoroughly in the store, so ask if they have a money back satisfaction guarantee - I know Magnolia does it.

 

[Nick250]

In general receivers will not sound different from one and other once you get them home and properly set up. It seems like the Pioneer would be a good choice for you.

Nick

 

[texasaggie94]

To Flea3333

Flea3333,

Just curious if you decided on the Denon or the Yamaha?