How to Evaluate a Quality Dealer? Help?

[Shortsord]

(sorry, kind of long, and I hope this is the right forum)

I recently met with a dealer, actually one of the dealers for many many brands in my area, and I really don't know how to react to certain things.

The most notable thing is that, as I walk in the person who greets and helps me is apparently the owner, and this is a chain of three stores in he area with this being the smallest. He was exceedingly friendly and helpful and was very welcoming. He told stories, we exchanged anecdotes, and he took me on a tour of the place without me even asking.

When I told him what I was interested in and what I had listened to already, he gave me his opinions and recommended some similar speakers. He's also the local NAD dealer, so I also asked about cd players and he was very candid and explained the real differences between the cd lines as a separate entity from his opinion of the sound quality differences. It was by far the most comfortable auditioning experience I have had - he set up the cd player I was interested in with an amp similar to what I was looking at and showed me how to use the switcher for speakers. He let me play with the cd player, the amp controls, and switch the speakers as I needed. He was in the room with me most of the time, but mainly just sat down and listened with me, I was actually up and down more than he was.

He did not try and stretch my price range, and even talked me out of considering stretching it. He also had reviews copied from magazines and printed from online for just about every product he showed me, and let me read through them or not at my leisure, even if they weren't the most positive thing (TAS). Overall he seemed very well informed, and it was a pleasant experience.

I started discussing pricing to get a clear idea of how everything compared. He offered a good deal on the speakers, and showed me a used amp of the one I had listened with because I liked it just so much (NAD 320BEE) at a reasonable price in great condition. He offered the cd player at list price, no disappointment there. But he was not pushy whatsoever, asked me when I was thinking of concreting a purchase and when I said anywhere between a week and three he didn't care. He even offered to hold the used amp for that long just in case.

Then something turned, subtly, but I don't know how much it matters. The speakers I was talking about with him were B&W 601, and he said that I definitely need to consider bi-wiring. Not knowing enough to question this but remembering all I had read here, I didn't feel a need to try and question it at the time. He said that I should definitely rely on a high quality speaker cable (Tara Labs at $1.58 a foot), and even mentioned the dreaded speaker cable "burn in." Here's the really funny thing though; he offered to throw them in for free. I told him I might want to put the speakers at either side of the room, which I'm not actually considering, thus requiring around 7-8 feet per speaker, and he still said that he would throw them in for free.

Free bi-wired hq speaker cable? I thought the alleged scheme behind bi-wiring and high cost cables was to rip off the customer?

So this is where I'm at. A nice dealer, I think, offering decent deals and is the dealer for many many good brands in the area, offering apparent snake oil but without ripping me off at all. What am I supposed to make of that? I'm fairly confused.

I'd really appreciate any opinions of a situation like this, and in general any recommendations on how to really evaluate a dealer?
What qualities do you look for in a quality dealer?
And should I engage in business with this dealer?

Cheers for help.

(on a side note, he also mentioned that he only carried Energy instead of Paradigm or PSB because they were basically all the same parts and similar designs, just different brands slight changes in the models. He didn't try to discourage me from pursuing the Paradigm or PSB which I told him I'm considering, he just threw that out there in regards to why he didn't carry them. Any truth there? I don't care that much, and if it was true I'd still just as much consider the PSB B25 against the B&W 601, which is where I'm currently at. Just curious.)

 

[Seth=L]

He offered you free snake oil cables, not because he wants to rip you off, but the more likely scenario is that he truly believes in cable burn-in and that bi-wiring makes a significant difference.

The PSB, Paradigm, Energy thing is bogus. Either he has little experience with those products or he just wants to sell his speakers to you. (the latter is the most likely case) Fact is those speakers couldn't be any different. Energy has mostly efficient speakers were PSB has power hungry speakers.

I don't think the dealer is trying to rip you off, he just has some skewed knowledge. I would go with your gut instinct, and what you like.

 

[zhimbo]

Yep. Sounds sincere at least.

Always be an informed buyer, don't let them sell you the snake oil...but all in all I think he's trying his best and - overall - giving really great service.

I don't know of any great way to evaluate a dealer other than word-of-mouth and your own experience (and I'm speaking generally, I know next to nothing specific to evaluating an *audio* dealer). I'd give him at least a solid "B" grade, if not better. Depends how much you want to dock him for "skewed knowledge" - nice phrase Seth=L!

 

[stratman]

He sounds like a guy that really wants your business, just because you sell A/V doesn't mean you know everything A/V. I wouldn't have a problem purchasing from such a person. I bet you that if you ask him to let you auditiont the speakers at your house when you buy your other gear he'll accomodate your request. In this day of net shopping, guys like him are becoming rare and if you value customer service I would suggest you cultivate a relationship with his business.

 

[Shortsord]

It did kind of seem like he was just genuinely offering them to me because he believed.

It's just strange because he was recommended by two other dealers. He also claims to have a lot of experience with setting up studios and plenty of stories like that, which I know to take with a grain of salt, but I suppose none of that conflicts with honestly believing such things.

As long as he's offering, is there any inherent downside to bi-wiring? He's offering for free if I decide on him, so I was wondering if there's any reason to say 'no'. I wouldn't have the nerve to say that I'd like the free cables, just not bi-wired. They are good cables after all.

Oh, and his policy on returns is 30 days, a year if anything goes wrong. Same for the sued. So I assume auditioning would be fine. I plan on doing that with the PSB and B&W anyways, 'cause I just can't choose between them.

For anyone interested, the store is Sound Factor, with a website by that name, and the one I went to was in Encino. This is all in Los Angeles, California.

I like the guy, and, as long as he wasn't pushy, which he wasn't, I think dealing with him feels like a good idea.
Just wanted some opinions, thanks.

ETA: I just realized, he was actually offering the cd player cheaper than the MSRP I think, the NAD C542 for 400.

 

[Seth=L]

No dissadvantages that I can think of if the cables are free.

 

[westcott]

I put the PSB's in a different class than the Energys and Paradigms. All are good speakers but PSB really puts a lot more R&D into their designs. I am a big fan of the Canadian Research Council, even though I am not a big fan of direct radiating speakers and that is how the PSB's are developed.

Also, unless you are an analog guy, a CD player is a CD player, is a CD player when using a digital connection. Which, by the way, is how 99% of us use a CD player in a home theater system. I would go for a less expensive CD player and get a Megachanger for convenience. I never thought I would get so much enjoyment out of a component like this but when you can store all your CDs out of sight and have the convenience of listening to anything in your library with a touch of a button and not having to get up to load. It has been a real surprise purchase that we have really grown to enjoy as much or more than anything we have bought to date.

It sounds like the man is sincere and wants your business, but I agree with some of the others. His knowledge seems a little questionable and he probably has so many cables gathering dust that giving them away is good PR and costs him very little under these circumstances.

You can do a search on this site about bi wiring and find that the differences are negligable. Not worth the effort in most cases.

Good Luck and keep us posted on what direction you decide to go in.

 

[Shortsord]

Thanks westcott. I was surprised after reading raves about them on this forum and elsewhere to be underwhelmed by the Paradigms. They didn't sound bad, but it just wasn't that impressive to me. The PSB's really sounded better.

And with regards to the cd player, this would be used in a simple stereo set up, no receiver involved. I'll need to use the analog out of cd player going straight into whichever integrated amp I get. I thought in a case like this that the quality of DAC involved mattered a lot more.

Besides, it always seemed that cd players just suffer from diminishing returns a lot earlier than most other components, but that it's still worth it to invest in a good one. For reliability, DAC quality, stability, and slight improvements in sound quality. Is that not generally true?

Cheers for the help.

 

[westcott]

Thanks westcott. I was surprised after reading raves about them on this forum and elsewhere to be underwhelmed by the Paradigms. They didn't sound bad, but it just wasn't that impressive to me. The PSB's really sounded better.

And with regards to the cd player, this would be used in a simple stereo set up, no receiver involved. I'll need to use the analog out of cd player going straight into whichever integrated amp I get. I thought in a case like this that the quality of DAC involved mattered a lot more.

Besides, it always seemed that cd players just suffer from diminishing returns a lot earlier than most other components, but that it's still worth it to invest in a good one. For reliability, DAC quality, stability, and slight improvements in sound quality. Is that not generally true?

Cheers for the help.

If you are going analog, the quality of the CD player, or more accurately, the quality of the DAC's in the CD player are important. If you are forgoing a preamp, then it will make a difference.

What are you going to do for DVD audio? Not a lot of titles out there but what is available that suits your tastes sure does sound sweet. I only ask this because once you upgrade your system, you will soon discover how bad the quality of many older CDs really are. Some of the remasters are very good but they too are far and few between.

Quality components cause a cascade effect that only someone that has been through it can really appreciate. I offer these bits of experience so maybe you can avoid some of the mistakes others have made before you.

I know what I am saying may sound contradictory and is somewhat of a catch 22 situation. You get better equipment only to find out the source sucks. I just don't want you to spend a lot of money to find this out.

Putting a preamp in the loop would at least provide access to DVD audio and SACD solutions and would allow you to spend what you would have on a quality CD player into the preamp. This may throw a monkey wrench in your original plan but I toss the idea out there for you to consider.

I hope I have not muddied the waters for you. I just want to help.

 

[billnchristy]

I like to bring up different brands and if they get poo-poo'd from the dealer I move on.

It is ok to have an opinion or not like certain products, but when you are comparing like valued speakers and they feel the need to crap all over them just because the guy down the street sells them...not worth it IMHO.

 

[jcPanny]

Dealer experience

Sounds like you found a dealer who can offer good customer support. Just because he is a nice guy doesn't make the B&Ws the best speaker.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the bi-wire recommendation. Many people think that it actually does make a difference. If he had tried to sell you on $10/foot audiosource speaker cables with batteries then I would run, but no harm in some free speaker wire.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Sounds like a good guy to deal with. He can probably teach you a few things and maybe you can teach him a few...

 

[Shortsord]

I'm planning on visiting the guy again this week to listen again and ask some more questions. I'm making it clear I'm not making a descision for another week at least, and asking about the auditioning policy. Any other ideas?

westcott,
I certainly have considered that. Originally I was considering going with a player that supported SACD, as a good number of artists I like run with them. I didn't know, however, whether or not for two channel alone it would make a difference. I've heard mixed things.

It's becoming a really difficult choice. Leaving out the speakers, on one hand I can spend more and end up with components that have nothing but positive reviews, and I know and like how they sound and work (which would be the NAD equipment referenced). Or, I can try out other components that would be cheaper, but tend toward mixed reviews and who's quality I'd have to ascertain myself (sony ce595 with sacd, marantz cc4300, etc.).

I originally wanted a cd changer, but have been willing to compromise that for sound quality, and pretty much everything I've read has said that, for the most part, a decent cd changer starts at the rotel 1055 or up. I'd be willing to look into a multi-format cd player for SACD or DVDA , but have not heard of any I could afford that work flawlessly stand alone. I don't want my tv involved with music at all, as they happen to be in different areas.

Adding another component would be more money unless it replaced the job of the integrated amp entirely, and I just don't know how worth it that would be. This is meant to be purely stereo only, as I plan to move in a surround system in about six months, and then would get a receiver et al. anyways. I just kind of assumed that I could get a dvd player that plays SACD or DVDA as well, and since that would be much more occasional, I assume, I could deal with it being tied to the tv.

I really do appreciate your advice. But to put money into a preamp justifiably I'd need to find a good multi-format cd player at a lesser price, and I don't have ideas for wither of those. I'm quite more than welcome to any recommendations for component considerations, I just haven't found any such myself that fit these criteria, and don't wish to clutter the forms asking over and over. Thanks a lot.

Sounds like you found a dealer who can offer good customer support. Just because he is a nice guy doesn't make the B&Ws the best speaker.

Sorry if I made it sound like that, but that's not what I meant. The B&W was the best I'd heard, nearly tied, without factoring the dealer in. I know enough to treat them differently, and am still planning on auditioning a few ID speakers as well.

Thanks for the help, this place really is great.

 

[Haoleb]

The amp your looking at is an integrated so you wouldnt need a seperate preamp to have sacd/dvd-a/hdcd/whatever. Im not quite sure what the other poster was talking about as to regards to adding a preamp.

If you get a dvd player that can play multi-format you do not need it to be tied to a tv. Its quite understandable that you want to have a cd player for just cd's but if you do think that you will want to consider surround sound in the future a universal player would be an obvious choice, there are plenty of perfectly fine sounding players on the market

 

[Haoleb]

The PSB, Paradigm, Energy thing is bogus. Either he has little experience with those products or he just wants to sell his speakers to you. (the latter is the most likely case) Fact is those speakers couldn't be any different. Energy has mostly efficient speakers were PSB has power hungry speakers.

He is an audio dealer, He isint going to carry three speaker lines that basically are the same type of speaker. (they are all in the same price range and types of models) Obviously he prefers the ones he carries over the others for various reasons. Doesnt mean hes some kind of speaker hating nazi

 

[AmpItUP]

It's always for the best to go with your insticnts, if you feel that he can't help you, go to someone else.

 

[AmpItUP]

It's always for the best to go with your insticnts, if you feel that he can't help you, go to someone else.
___________
Cougar Parts and Accessories Part 2 by Auto Krafters, Inc. - Cougar Parts and Accessories Part 2 by Auto Krafters, Inc.

 

[Seth=L]

He is an audio dealer, He isint going to carry three speaker lines that basically are the same type of speaker. (they are all in the same price range and types of models) Obviously he prefers the ones he carries over the others for various reasons. Doesnt mean hes some kind of speaker hating nazi

Just because they come from the same country does not imply that they are similar or the same. He can have a personal preference, but to say they are the same is bologna.

 

[Shortsord]

I realized something that might, I hope, make a lot more sense of the situation.

What I want in what I am buying now is a cd player to go to an integrated amp to go to speakers, and and to have as good a sound as I can get for now while planning for the future. I do want to listen to other formats, but for now and for the most part cd's are the primary listening material anyways.

I am getting an oppo 970 at the beginning of April(B-day) which, I completely forgot, plays SACD and DVDA, and from the reviews seems to play them pretty darn well. At the end of summer I plan on purchasing a home theatre setup and a receiver, so that would easily allow me to take advantage of the SACD and DVDA of the oppo, which I could connect to this stereo set up when needed.

This all makes sense in my mind, but I do want other opinions.

Are there any downsides to getting a cd player and integrated amp for this stereo set up alone, and running the analog out of the oppo to the integrated as well for use of SACD or DVDA? It would allow me to listen primarily to cd's without a tv involved, allow me to listen to DVDA and SACD when I want to, gives good components, and doesn't seem to hinder my plan for a receiver and ht setup soon.

Any downside that I'm missing? I know the cd player is a lot, but as I'm using the analog out, doesn't that make it worth paying the extra for the DAC's? And how is the oppo through analog? Good enough to be glad for and appreciate SACD and DVDA even without a receiver doing the conversion?

Thanks for all the advice guys.

 

[Haoleb]

If your planning on getting the Oppo then It wouldn't be a bad idea to just forget about getting a seperate cd player all-together. While I most certainly do not agree that "all cd players sound the same" I would have to agree that you are probably not going to notice any appreciable difference between the oppo and the NAD player that will justify the extra cost of getting a second player.

The DAC's in a standard reciever are likely no better than those of a stand-alone cd player if not even worse, You will be able to hear a difference with high res formats vs cd's with pretty much any sacd/dvd-a player. Just listen to "Dark Side of The Moon" on Sacd and on cd and you'll know what I mean. Distortion free baby! If you are truly worried about not getting decent sound out of the oppo with analog output's for CD's then you can always spend the money on a DAC that you would have spent on a second cd player. Used would be a great place to get a respectable DAC for less then 400 bucks. Keep in mind however that you wont find one that will decode SACD or DVD-A. At least as far as i know these havent come along yet.