Common (??) Video Problem

[ronnie 1.8]

I have a solid monitor and a great DVD player (see signature). Both have been professionally calibrated. In most DVDs I have been noticing a troubling behavior. In any onscreen object, when the color (any color, but more noticeable in darker colors) fades from a darker shade to a lighter shade, the display shows only 1 shade in an area that should be displayed as many many shades. It's similar to a halo or layer effect. Instead of seeing ever-changing shades of a color, you may see a band of one shade, then another band of a slightly lighter shade, and so forth. It's horrible to see, and once I noticed it, I now find I look for it all the time, and usually always see it! Uggh. What is this called, and what causes it? I would doubt it is my plasma or my player, and would believe it is the source material. I'm sure each type of display has its own inherent problems, and perhaps this is common w/ plasmas. I don't recall if I saw this problem w/ I was using component. When I bought my 3930 player, I went to HDMI, and am trying to recall if the problem began at that time, or I just never noticed it before.

It seems as though my native 768x1366 is not of high enough resolution to display images without this effect. Perhaps this would be less noticeable with a 1080 display??

 

[no. 5]

Sounds like banding to me, and no, the TVs resolution is not to blame.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

Sounds like banding to me, and no, the TVs resolution is not to blame.

Resolution may not be the cause (or a cause) of banding, but what I describe, I don't believe, is banding. What I describe has no consistent shapes or patterns, but rather follows the shape of the object, and never exceeds the boundaries of the object, be it a headboard, a wall, dark bushes in a night scene, etc. Even the shadows around the cheekbones on one's face.

And I've noticed I don't seem to see this in cable HD, but only with DVD. Some worse than others. If the cause is the source DVD, I'm surprised, as the DVD3930CI shouldn't produce that. I think the next time I get behind my stand, I may swap my HDMI cable with component and see what happens.

 

[Hi Ho]

I'd say it's the DVD. It could be the DVD itself, the player, or a setting in the player or TV. This problem can be caused by the compression applied to all DVD's. It could also be caused by the scaler/processing in the DVD player or the TV. It has nothing to do with the resolution of the display.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have a solid monitor and a great DVD player (see signature). Both have been professionally calibrated. In most DVDs I have been noticing a troubling behavior. In any onscreen object, when the color (any color, but more noticeable in darker colors) fades from a darker shade to a lighter shade, the display shows only 1 shade in an area that should be displayed as many many shades. It's similar to a halo or layer effect. Instead of seeing ever-changing shades of a color, you may see a band of one shade, then another band of a slightly lighter shade, and so forth. It's horrible to see, and once I noticed it, I now find I look for it all the time, and usually always see it! Uggh. What is this called, and what causes it? I would doubt it is my plasma or my player, and would believe it is the source material. I'm sure each type of display has its own inherent problems, and perhaps this is common w/ plasmas. I don't recall if I saw this problem w/ I was using component. When I bought my 3930 player, I went to HDMI, and am trying to recall if the problem began at that time, or I just never noticed it before.

It seems as though my native 768x1366 is not of high enough resolution to display images without this effect. Perhaps this would be less noticeable with a 1080 display??

Did you calibrate the TV and the DVD player? How long is the HDMI cable?
This effect on all your DVDs?

 

[ronnie 1.8]

Yes, both plasma and player have been pro calibrated. HDMI cable is 2 meters. I don't think the average person notices what I am seeing, but once you notice it, you cannot stop noticing it. I doubt it is caused by the player - a new Denon 3930CI. I will swap HDMI w/ component sometime this weekend and see what happens.

Yes, this happens on all DVDs, though not continually throughout the movie. It depends on the scene, and the colors in the scene. Some scenes worse than others, some DVDs more than others.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

I'd say it's the DVD. It could be the DVD itself, the player, or a setting in the player or TV. This problem can be caused by the compression applied to all DVD's. It could also be caused by the scaler/processing in the DVD player or the TV. It has nothing to do with the resolution of the display.

I'm hoping it's the DVDs, as well, vs the player. The 3930CI features Silicon Optix REALTA video processing, so assuming the player is functioning properly, I should be able to rule-out the player.

 

[Hi Ho]

I wouldn't expect it to be the player either. What he is describing sounds like artifacts of MPEG2 compression which is present on all DVD's.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

I wouldn't expect it to be the player either. What he is describing sounds like artifacts of MPEG2 compression which is present on all DVD's.

OK, and MPEG2 compression seems to be a likely cause. If it is caused by MPEG2 compression, then what I describe should be visible on all displays, right? Do you also see what I describe on your display? And also, if it is due to MPEG2 compression, changing my HDMI cable to component should result in no change.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

Sounds like banding to me, and no, the TVs resolution is not to blame.

You know, after another 60 min of researching the issue, it may indeed be "banding". I had not heard of that term re: video problems, but that may be it. I read another thread of a guy having a problem identical to mine (but he described it a bit better). He said "concentric circles", and "Natural gradients are blocky and the picture looks artificlial, like bad CGI" are exactly my experience. Then he later used "macroblocking", so I'm not sure if "macroblocking" and "banding" are synonymous, but I have concentric circles and the natural gradients are blocky and look like CGI, unnatural. His problem was his player. If my problem is my player, either my pro calibrator did a poor job, or my player is faulty.

 

[no. 5]

I may very well be set straight on this (I'm an audio guy, all this video stuff makes me confused ), but "banding" is when a color or brightness graduates to another in visible steps, rather then in a smooth graduation.

So, if a picture was meant to be black on one side, and graduate to white on the other, if the picture has "banding", there would be a band of black then a slightly lighter band of black, then a another lighter band, and so on to a final band of white; rather then the smooth black to white that should be seen.

Here is some info on "banding", with pictures

some info on "macro blocking", with pictures

I agree with Hi Ho, it sounds like artifacts of MPEG2 compression.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

I may very well be set striate on this (I'm an audio guy, all this video stuff makes me confused ), but "banding" is when a color or brightness graduates to another in visible steps, rather then in a smooth graduation.

So, if a picture was meant to be black on one side, and graduate to white on the other, if the picture has "banding", there would be a band of black then a slightly lighter band of black, then a another lighter band, and so on to a final band of white; rather then the smooth black to white that should be seen.

Here is some info on "banding", with pictures

some info on "macro blocking", with pictures

I agree with Hi Ho, it sounds like artifacts of MPEG2 compression.

Thanks, this is helpful. I did a bit more digging, and believe I am experiencing both banding and macroblocking. I found this:

Macroblocking: This is mostly caused when a frame doesn't have enough bits to encode an area so it has to do more rigorous averaging. This averaging can sometimes round differently from block to block, causing this effect.

Your definition of banding is exactly what I am also experiencing. And I am glad to read that this is the result of mpeg2 compression, not a result of my player. So even the mighty Denon 3930CI cannot prevent banding and macroblocking, it seems...

Look at this page:

http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtech/avspostqual.html

and scroll to the very bottom image, and mouse over it for a "before and after" image. You can see lots of macroblocking, and that is exactly what I see on just about every DVD, in one scene or another, and many times in several scenes.

 

[no. 5]

http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtech/avspostqual.html

and scroll to the very bottom image, and mouse over it for a "before and after" image. You can see lots of macroblocking, and that is exactly what I see on just about every DVD, in one scene or another, and many times in several scenes.

Glad to help , I can see why you’d want to fix that.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

So if the cause is the source, i.e., MPEG2 compression, is it true that even excellent video processors like the Silicon Optix Realta cannot correct the problem? In other words, is my conclusion that my player is fine, and it's just something one has to live with? That's OK - far better than thinking I have a problem w/ my player...

 

[mtrycrafts]

Some scenes worse than others, some DVDs more than others.

This should be a clue Or, 'the' clue.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

This should be a clue Or, 'the' clue.

Yeah, you are right! I've spent another hour or more reading about macroblocking, and believe that is what I am experiencing, and now believe it's recorded onto the 'offending' discs - my plasma and player are both calibrated. Now that I understand MB better, I even believe hdmi should reduce the effects of macroblocking and banding vs component. Funny how I never seemed to notice MB as much w/ my past players...

 

[Hi Ho]

I have never noticed it on my setup which consists of a Panasonic DMR ES15 DVD recorder feeding 480i through component to my Yamaha RX-V2700 which scales to 720p and outputs to my Mitsubishi HD1000 projector over HDMI.

I see the problem nearly every day at work though when I set up the cheapest DVD players we sell (Sony models) and connect them through component to Sony TV's. They simply don't impress me but the average person doesn't seem to notice.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

I see the problem nearly every day at work though when I set up the cheapest DVD players we sell (Sony models) and connect them through component to Sony TV's. They simply don't impress me but the average person doesn't seem to notice.

This is exactly what caused me concern in the beginning (and may still a bit). I read of macroblocking here and there when reading DVD reviews, and so forth, but did not know what it was. Then when I installed my 3930CI, and replaced my component interconnect w/ HDMI, and had it pro calibrated, I expected it to be pretty much perfect. I think that caused me to look for things, and I started noticing a problem, but did not know it was named macroblocking and banding. I now know what the problem is, and am surprised that a player of such high video performance as the 3930CI allows macroblocking and banding. But from what I now understand, it's the video source and cannot be helped. I have several reference quality DVDs (in terms of video), and will watch 1 or 2, and see how much I notice macroblocking and banding. I'm hoping the problem does not exist, or exists very very little in these higher-quality DVDs...