Adding Amp to Yamaha RX-V2600

[PENG]

I did not know this, thank you. This supports the theory as to why they sound different with the Emotiva a little better.

Please be aware that I have made too many assumptions in trying to rationalize something. I just checked out the specs of the RF-83, they are 8 ohms nominal so it is unlikely they would dip down to 1 ohm but even if they dip down to 3 ohms in the low frequency range they could present a challenge to a receiver if you crank the SPL up to the 100 dB neighborhood and listen to multi-channel music as Jey said he did. He should be careful though because that kind of SPL level could be harmful.

The counterpoint is that loudspeakers typically have relatively high impedance in the low frequency range. That negates some of my assumptions. I would love to see some real impedance/frequency graphs for the big Klipsch reference speakers. Audio gear, including speakers, is a product of science, engineering and technology. As such, we should be able to explain why and how they perform in a certain way. By the way, the RF-83 can handle 1000W peak!

 

[Gov]

Please be aware that I have made too many assumptions in trying to rationalize something. I just checked out the specs of the RF-83, they are 8 ohms nominal so it is unlikely they would dip down to 1 ohm but even if they dip down to 3 ohms in the low frequency range they could present a challenge to a receiver if you crank the SPL up to the 100 dB neighborhood and listen to multi-channel music as Jey said he did. He should be careful though because that kind of SPL level could be harmful.

The counterpoint is that loudspeakers typically have relatively high impedance in the low frequency range. That negates some of my assumptions. I would love to see some real impedance/frequency graphs for the big Klipsch reference speakers. Audio gear, including speakers, is a product of science, engineering and technology. As such, we should be able to explain why and how they perform in a certain way. By the way, the RF-83 can handle 1000W peak!

What about if the speakers were set to "small" and crossed at 80hz? Would your statement still be true?

 

[PENG]

What about if the speakers were set to "small" and crossed at 80hz? Would your statement still be true?

Probably not, it still depends on other factors, but more power on hand never hurts. Remember we are talking about someone who plays his music at the 90 to 100 dB SPL (that's way too loud for most people), multi-channels, and then the peaks...

 

[highfihoney]

By the way, the RF-83 can handle 1000W peak!

Hi peng, Klipsch makes several models that have the 1,000 watt peak ratings,the cornwall is rated at 100 watts rms with 1,000 watt peaks,101db @ 8 ohms,crazy stupid loud too.

I realize that science & enginering are 99% of the equation but there really are some klipsch models that sound different with different amplification,why they sound different i dont know but they do,take the Cornwall & Heresy for examples,both share the same cabinet design,driver configuration & are very close in sound,most people who hear the heresy report back saying the Heresy sounds terrible,same goes for the Cornwall.

Both these models will sound very different to me depending on amplification,if i put some adcom amps on them they end up sounding extremely bright with loose sloppy bass,with krell amps on them i hear the same sloppy bass & shrieking highs,they sound so bad to me that i cant stand to be in the same room with them even for short term listening.

When i ran them with other amps the whole sound came into focus,good tight bass & much tamer highs,the whole sound stage changed for the better in a big way,im dead serious,these speakers went from sounding like some of the worst speakers in the world to sounding as good as any other speaker,all that was changed in the set up was amplification & im able to have pleasent & extended listening sessions with them.

Maybe there is a reason for this buried within the speakers impendence swings or frequency response,to that i can not attest but there are way too many reports from owners of these models (spanning decades) that respond dramatically to amplification to be dismissed as personal sighted bias or one being louder than the other.

 

[PENG]

Hello highfi, I hear you loud and clear, whatever the reasons, science/eng. should be able to explain it 100%. We just don't know enough. These things are man made (not by birth)! Anyway, for 1% difference I am going to agree with you.

I did manage to find a S&V lab measurements, the RF-83 has a huge impedance swing of 2.8 to 13 ohms. Still no graphs of phase angle vs freq, just magnitude vs freq. Surprisingly the surrounds are 3.5 to 5 ohms. No wonder Jey's system needs so much power, at his insane listening levels. It explains his case, but not in others (yours?) when people reported much better results even at low SPL levels with powerful amps.

 

[Gov]

I would think that most well made speakers have large impedance swings. Take my Ascend Acoustics, according the the graph on the 340SE's, they swing between 5-22 ohms thru-out the frequency range http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340mmeas.html

I also have the 200's as surrounds and they go between about 4.5-13 ohms
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/htm200/htm200meas.html

Both are rated 8 ohms

I am using a Pioneer 1014 receiver and occasionally push 100db on music for a short period of time. I have never had a problem so far, but sometimes I wonder if I am pushing it a bit too much

 

[mtrycrafts]

Think about a concert hall, how many dB would you expect it to drop from the front rows to the back rows that are easily a hundred feet apart.

I have

Use the same link. When you get the first page page for inverse sq. law, on the side of the image, link on Auditorium Acoustics. You get a bunch of balloons. One of the balloons is yet another Inverse Square Law link. This gives another explanation with calcs.
1st row, 6m, reference of 90dB spl. last row, 60m, a loss of 20dB spl.

I doubt they made a mistake on either one, a room or the auditorium one.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... No wonder Jey's system needs so much power, at his insane listening levels.

I really wonder about his numbers of 90-100dB, unless those are peaks. If the meter is there constantly and then the peaks on top, wow, pretty soon he won't hear anything and his problem will be solved forever

 

[cfrizz]

Truer words were never spoken Highfihoney. In the end what Jey & his wife hear is all that matters. BTW, I'm still picking my jaw up off of the floor for your system! WOW.

Jey, congrats on discovering the benefits of external amplification. You are NOT alone in what you are hearing. I will never have less than 200wpc amps powering my speakers!

Jey, 2 questions for you & your wife.

Will reading any of this information being presented to the fact that all amps sound alike change what you hear or in some way enlighten you so now you wont hear the differences anymore? Me thinks not

Will the reporting of hearing differences posted by those of us who have tried atleast some of the gear you speak of & admit along with you that we have heard differences change what your family hears? Me thinks not

 

[mtrycrafts]

In the end what Jey & his wife hear is all that matters.

Yes, it is, but, but, as the story goes

 

[UFObuster]

Result of adding Rotel RB-1080 to Yamaha RX-V2600

Maybe there is a reason for this buried within the speakers impendence swings or frequency response,to that i can not attest but there are way too many reports from owners of these models (spanning decades) that respond dramatically to amplification to be dismissed as personal sighted bias or one being louder than the other.

I was the original poster of this thread asking what, if any, advantage to be gained by adding amplification...and thanks to this "community", the answers back were informative and entertaining.

To review, I was using Yamaha RX-V2600 (130amp/ch) to support a 5.1 system with Klipsch RF-7 front, RF-5 rear, RC-7 center and self-powered sub.
The room is 36 feet long...(18 wide, 9 high)...listening set up in an 18x18 area at one end. I keyed off of comments on the Klipsch forum regarding power specifically for the RF-7 which has two 10" metallic cones and titaniuim tweeter behind a tractrix horn. Although nominally "enough", was the Yammi a good match for power?...following good advice here, I shopped locally and took home a loaner: the Rotel RB-1080 with 200 watts per channel (two channel) to drive the front RF-7 pair. I did not key off of the brand, just the best locally available.

Setting up: I used the Yammi as pre/pro for the front only (as noted) thru the Rotel to the RF-7 pair. The RC-7 and RF-5 pair remained on the Yammi. I used the interal auto set up first, then fine tuned with SPL meter getting my final level match the same as it was before. Kept speakers set to small with a 60hz crossover for the sub (again, all as before to validate the comparison).

I listened first in 2 channel mode, then 5.1 surround with these perceived results:
I detected a listenable improvement in mid-range "fullness" and a better bass out-put which I subscribe to better bass out-put from the RF-7. The integration with the sub was improved with a "smooth" and more robust sound of percussion instruments. Although delighted, I wasn't all that surprised with this improvement. What did surprise me was some extra definition in detail. I've always thought highly of the Klipsch for detail (some call it "brightness"), but it actually improved. Example: in the 2nd movement of Mozart's piano concerto No 23, the orchestra's strings are "plucked" in the accompaniement to the piano. It actually sounded clearer (on the same recording). I also noticed clearer definition in discriminating different instrumental sounds. Rock albums were not so much different except for the already mentioned "punchier" bass.
There was the same improvement in the 5.1 sound format (including DVD-A). The vocal tracks on a Diana Krall and an Elton John recording seemed to have a richer texture which I subscribe to some improved mid-range vocal harmonics (again, more detail). The surround channels sounded about the same but it would be hard to hear a lot of difference anyway. I'm going to presume that 3 channels run off of the Yammi would be "empirically" better than all 5 at once.

Summary: I kept the Rotel. You could hear a difference. Was it power or just a better component? Who knows. My guess is that since my room is large and the RF-7 speakers may be "finicky", the extra power helped. I have a feeling that the component quality factored in as well so I vote for both.

Don't know if you guys get the same results as me...but that's how it worked here.

Roger

 

[cfrizz]

Congrats UFObuster!

You have described perfectly the benefits most people have heard when they added 200wpc or more!

Enjoy.