Adding Amp to Yamaha RX-V2600

[Seth=L]

I just gave myself an excuse to test the loudness capabilities of my system though, thanks.

I wish I had that luxury.

I was thinking back on an experience I had with Klipsch and Yamaha before. It was the Synergy series connected to a HTR series (top model) and it was in BEST buy, which is the WORST place to demo speakers or anything for that matter.

At lower levels the Klipsch sounded OK, that is all Synergy does for me, ok sound. But when the associates decided they were going to "impress" me it sounded awful. The bass when all phooey and the highs went straight to the typical Klipsch stereotype.

Here is the point, you can't make a speaker that does everything well. If you have an efficient speaker, that covers it's frequencies very well from top to bottom, you can expect the speaker to have some impedance issues.

Levi and Wire mentioned tube amplifiers, and I believe that many tube amplifiers are very capable with low resistance, and not to mention tube amps can endure more heat torture than transistors can. I read that tubes can be ran in overload for minutes before they give in. This may be why Klipsch and tubes pair so well together. In fact they seem to be designed that way.

 

[Nuglets]

I wish I had that luxury.

It's nice, I just moved back in with the parents after living in an apartment building where the neighbors seemed to hate loud noises. In a few months though I have to say goodbye to my system until I can get a place of my own when attending the University of Minnesota Twin-Cities. I'll be staying with my cousin and his family and I don't think they would enjoy my stereo as much as I do, so I'll leave it with my parents since they don't mind it.

 

[highfihoney]

Hifi, I have to laff though, you are telling me not to chase sound and you have a few hundred Macks lying around..lol.

Well.............it does sound kinda stupid comming from me i

Just to qualify my obsession with hifi gear,i gave up chasing the best sound a long time ago,collecting audio equipment has became a seperate hobby for me,im finally at a point in my life where i have some disposable income so i figure buying hifi gear to have fun with is as good as anything else.

 

[Jey Jockey]

Impedance

hey Seth and all, after doing some research I have found that low impedance swings such as what the 83's show is the most likely reason Klipsch wants tons of WPC for my 83's..250 rms MINIMUM!

This is quoted from Wuzzer on the Klipsch forum:
2) Sensitivity is where the higher the number the better. The higher the speaker's sensitivity, the louder it will play with the same wattage input as a speaker with a lower sensitivity. Its very common to see speakers in the low 90s or high 80s for sensitivity. If you look at Klipsch's speakers, most of them will be rated in the mid 90s up to over 100dB. The lower the sensitivity the harder your amp has to work, the higher the sensitivity the easier it is on your amp. **Differences in the ohm rating of a speaker will affect how hard an amp has to work, too. For instance the now discontinued RF-7 speaker from Klipsch had a minimum impedence rating of 2.8 ohms which is lower than most amps can handle well. As a result, even though the speaker has a high sensitivity rating, many users found good results by using an amp that outputted 200+ clean watts per channel and was stable to lower than average ohm loads.



as per your numbers on the 83..look at the min impedance

Impedance (minimum/nominal)
front left/right: 2.8/11 ohms
center: 2.8/13 ohms
surround: 3.1/5 ohms

Here are the numbers for the MPs1...this is starting to make sense now
• Completely Stable into 2 ohm loads

• 200 watts/8 ohms – 300 watts/4 ohms – 400 watts/2 ohms - seven channels driven, mains


I would think its safe to say this is one reason why the MPS1 made such big changes in sound, I suspect the Yamaha was simply unable to deal with the impedance swings and remain stable especially when cranked.

Another thing you guys are forgetting is that the surround channels on the Yammy even when set with an Spl meter just could not produce the power when really being pushed , the amp just crushes the Yammy in surround volume, clarity and authority.Not to mention you could fry bacon and eggs on the Yammy when driven hard especially in multi channel music.

Just my thoughts and observations
Chris

 

[Jey Jockey]

Hey Hifi, I love good sound but I also really have developed a very keen interest in higher end audio equipment in the last year or so especially.I have been around audio gear since I was 16 and worked as a roadie for a huge Mobile DJ in England and worked my way up to DJ, so I have been around music and big audio for along time.

I just love how it looks, the smells you get off of gear when it gets hot, and of course the sound. I can see this getting alot more expensive as I move forward in my HT/HIFI addiction.

Lovin every minute of it...and always learning.
Chris

 

[Seth=L]

Yes, this very well may be the reason it sounds so different.

I would still like to know why the Heresy sounded poorly with the Adcom mono-blocks however.

The Surrounds are also not so nice in the resistance department, that could cause some issues for their overall output.

 

[Jey Jockey]

True, but I think they are 93db, hardly inefficient either. They sure sound better though and also they are 265 RMS....hmmmm lol

fun stuff

 

[mtrycrafts]

Sorry Jay
mtrycrafts
Does that mean he has to turn on his wife on also ,what if she has a headach ? For the effect to work ?

LOL funny indeed.

 

[PENG]

That is about right How far was the meter? At 12 ft, you loose about 8 dB in a room, different from free space numbers.

Not always true, 12 ft is approx. 3.66m, it may drop only 2 to 3 dB depending on the room's acoustic environment. In my 12X17.5X8 room, at between 7 to 15 ft the SPL hardly drop at all, in some cases it goes up.

Again, the inverse square rule only holds true in open field. I guess you know that already but I don't know why you still say he would loose about 8 dB at 12 ft in a room.

 

[PENG]

It does seem odd that quite a few posts about hearing major difference with high power amps are Klipsch owners. May be in addition to their low impedance swing (and perhaps frequent swings), they also suffer from being highly inductive, i.e. very low power factor.

 

[Seth=L]

It does seem odd that quite a few posts about hearing major difference with high power amps are Klipsch owners. May be in addition to their low impedance swing (and perhaps frequent swings), they also suffer from being highly inductive, i.e. very low power factor.

Care to elaborate on that, highly inductive that is. You can PM me or we can start I new thread, I don't want to keep going off topic on this thread if possible. I could just start a new thread for the benefit of all. Give me moment to start it.

 

[wire]

It does seem odd that quite a few posts about hearing major difference with high power amps are Klipsch owners. May be in addition to their low impedance swing (and perhaps frequent swings), they also suffer from being highly inductive, i.e. very low power factor.

I do agree , ive know many systems , years ago with Klipsch speakers ( they where very popular where i grew up ) . The older models where matched with smaller amps ( alot of NAD to boot ).

 

[Nuglets]

Not always true, 12 ft is approx. 3.66m, it may drop only 2 to 3 dB depending on the room's acoustic environment. In my 12X17.5X8 room, at between 7 to 15 ft the SPL hardly drop at all, in some cases it goes up.

Again, the inverse square rule only holds true in open field. I guess you know that already but I don't know why you still say he would loose about 8 dB at 12 ft in a room.

At my listening position I get ~-1dB when compared to 3ft from the speaker.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Not always true, 12 ft is approx. 3.66m, it may drop only 2 to 3 dB depending on the room's acoustic environment. In my 12X17.5X8 room, at between 7 to 15 ft the SPL hardly drop at all, in some cases it goes up.

Again, the inverse square rule only holds true in open field. I guess you know that already but I don't know why you still say he would loose about 8 dB at 12 ft in a room.

I bet the spl increase is purely from low frequency room mode interactions that varies with room position.
But, to your direct question, it came from this very good explanation at hyperphysics:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

unfortunately, it cannot link to the exact page, so follow the main page, to sound and hearing, then to the inverse square law, then click on measurement example. That page explains the room calculations except it is in centimeters Nor does it go in even meters.
So, I interpolated from 1m to 12 ft, about an 8 dB loss.

I don't think you can realistically count the low frequency mode caused increases.

 

[PENG]

I bet the spl increase is purely from low frequency room mode interactions that varies with room position.
But, to your direct question, it came from this very good explanation at hyperphysics:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

unfortunately, it cannot link to the exact page, so follow the main page, to sound and hearing, then to the inverse square law, then click on measurement example. That page explains the room calculations except it is in centimeters Nor does it go in even meters.
So, I interpolated from 1m to 12 ft, about an 8 dB loss.

I don't think you can realistically count the low frequency mode caused increases.

Thank you for clarifying it. When I took my measurements I did not use music that has too much low frequencies. I can assure you that I was getting 2 to dB loss only from 3 to 13 ft. At some spot I was getting the same or even a slight gain. I guess it depends heavily on the room and there isn't any typical or rule of thumb to use.

Think about a concert hall, how many dB would you expect it to drop from the front rows to the back rows that are easily a hundred feet apart.

 

[ggunnell]

I've mated both the Emotiva MPS-1 and the Rotel 1095 with the Yamaha 2600 -- look in Audioholics reviews and you will see this use of the Yamahas as prepros with power amps is recommended as a great value, and the Emotiva MPS-1 was actually used.

If it were my money I would not buy less than a 200W@ch-8ohms power amp, as the amount of benefit you get from smaller units, relative to your Yamaha, is not as worth the money you will spend. And a 200W amp is a lot more useful -- you may find yourself with lower efficiency speakers someday.

Don't skimp on a power amp -- better to buy a good used one if you can't afford a good new one.

 

[ggunnell]

One other amp you might consider if you are on a budget: a pair of Outlaw M 2200 monoblocks for $624 including shipping.
AFAIK there's only one review of these:
http://www.prillaman.net/m200_review.html
Folks have posted nice things about them, but I've never heard them, and I don't see any AB comparisons with amps that are known to sound good, like the ones I mentioned in the post above.
Still, it might be worth risking return shipping to Outlaw to audition them -- they don't weigh that much and you'd get 2 x 200W (300W into 4 ohms) for $624...

 

[highfihoney]

Seth, can you explain to me why I would hear the difference? Which I really do, its so noticable that even my wife says, wow.LOL

Jey, 2 questions for you & your wife.

Will reading any of this information being presented to the fact that all amps sound alike change what you hear or in some way enlighten you so now you wont hear the differences anymore? Me thinks not

Will the reporting of hearing differences posted by those of us who have tried atleast some of the gear you speak of & admit along with you that we have heard differences change what your family hears? Me thinks not

 

[PENG]

I have got to say there are only two possible reasons for the change in audio.

A.) The Klipsch swing low, and the Yamaha can't properly handle the low resistance even at using just a few watts.

This completely defies physics. Try and true electrical theory does not support such scenario.

Let's assume the following unlikely scenario:

a) Jey's RF-7's impedance suddenly dips to say 1 ohm, and the voltage at that moment is 10V because he plays his music at 90 to 100 dB SPL.

b) At that moment the 1 ohm impedance is 100% resistive.

Now apply the formula I=V/Z=10/1=10A, and P=(I^2)XR=100W, that's not a few watts.

Dip in impedance and yet remain in low power usage cannot coexist, unless that low impedance happens to be made up of mostly inductive or capacitive reactance that do not translate into real watts but VARs only. In that case, consider:

If the resistive components of the 1 ohm impedance is only 0.1 ohm, the remaining 0.9 ohms are reactive, then the same example above would yield

P=10AX10AX0.1=10 watts, closer to your few watts example but still quite a few watts, right? 10AX7 is still way too much for the Yamaha to handle.

So regardless, you are right in the sense that if his RF-7 does dip low into the sub 1 ohm territory frequent enough while listening to DVD-A/SACD at 90 to 100 dB SPL, adding an amp to the already reasonably robust RX-V2500 would yield noticeable improvement in sound quality.

 

[Seth=L]

This completely defies physics. Try and true electrical theory does not support such scenario.

Let's assume the following unlikely scenario:

a) Jey's RF-7's impedance suddenly dips to say 1 ohm, and the voltage at that moment is 10V because he plays his music at 90 to 100 dB SPL.

b) At that moment the 1 ohm impedance is 100% resistive.

Now apply the formula I=V/Z=10/1=10A, and P=(I^2)XR=100W, that's not a few watts.

Dip in impedance and yet remain in low power usage cannot coexist, unless that low impedance happens to be made up of mostly inductive or capacitive reactance that do not translate into real watts but VARs only. In that case, consider:

If the resistive components of the 1 ohm impedance is only 0.1 ohm, the remaining 0.9 ohms are reactive, then the same example above would yield

P=10AX10AX0.1=10 watts, closer to your few watts example but still quite a few watts, right? 10AX7 is still way too much for the Yamaha to handle.

So regardless, you are right in the sense that if his RF-7 does dip low into the sub 1 ohm territory frequent enough while listening to DVD-A/SACD at 90 to 100 dB SPL, adding an amp to the already reasonably robust RX-V2500 would yield noticeable improvement in sound quality.

I did not know this, thank you. This supports the theory as to why they sound different with the Emotiva a little better.