Adding Amp to Yamaha RX-V2600

[Seth=L]

OR.............

C.) The klipsch speakers that he has are a very revealing speaker & they sound different when paired with different electronics.

Im not picking on you seth god knows i love ya

For the record, The reason i quote you so much is that i see you having fun in this hobby & that is the most important thing of all,i also suspect that you'll get around to trying out alot of different gear just for the fun of it.

My opinion from from decades of owning various klipsch speakers is this.

The way Klipsch speakers interact with different electronics is easy for alot of people to hear(including myself),from my experience klipsch does not pair well with alot of electronics which leads many to believe they sound like crap,if there was ever a brand of speaker made that required carefull component matching Klipsch is it.

Perhaps the resistance of Klipsch accounts for this. The tweeters in the Klipsch are very efficient, correct? But what about the woofers? How would a more powerful amplifier interract with these speakers, would it balance the sound?

I have a feeling there is something about Klipsch we need to know. Someone should bench test some different Klipsch models and find out what is going.

 

[Jey Jockey]

Hi Seth, I have to agree with Hifi, my speakers are super revealing, you hear every little thing with these speaks, thats another reason why alot of people don't like Klipsch, bad recordings are unbearable to my ear with the 83's but when its good its awesome .

On that note, how much audible differnence will I hear if I go to a proper pre/pro? My understanding is that the DACS and the processors in them are far superior to what my Yammy would have.Would love to hear from you folks that have made the switch.

You guys have any comments on why Klipsch recommends minimum amp ratings? As I said before they say the "minimum" for my 83's is 250 RMS...wow, thats a whole lot of juice, I thought my MPS1 was pumping out the current! I suspect its to prevent clipping but man, at 100db sensitivity you would think they wouldn't need that much jam behind them.

 

[highfihoney]

Hi Fi
Have you ever tryed a tube amp matched to some Lascalla's or Hersey's .
Ive heard Hersey's matched with small NAD's (intra) , they sound quite good .

Hi wire,ive never had lascala's but i have owned the rest of the heritage line,tried em all with tubes too,right now in my wife's plant/sun room we have a pair of heresy 2's teamed up with a Golden Tube Audio se40 se Tube amp ,I love my heresy's.

Pretty soon im going to pull the GTA tube amp out of there & run an MCS intergrated in that little system,Tubes scare my wife plus the MCS is an excellent little intergrated.

 

[Seth=L]

I am researching the Klipsch 83's right now, there could be something in all this. Since the Klipsch are 100db @ 1 watt and are rated at 250 watts RMS, then if they were given 250 clean watts they would achieve 124db, which will certainly damage your hearing, if not make you go deaf.

 

[highfihoney]

Perhaps the resistance of Klipsch accounts for this. The tweeters in the Klipsch are very efficient, correct? But what about the woofers? How would a more powerful amplifier interract with these speakers, would it balance the sound?

All klipsch designs are super efficient,i dont think amp power or quality has anything to do with balancing the sound,there has to be some reason(which i dont claim to know) why klipsch speakers are so revealing but i do know that i hear some gear makes klipsch speakers sound rotten while other gear makes them smooth as silk.

Dig this,i have a pair of adcom gfa 565 monoblocks that i really like alot but they make my son's klipsch kg-4's sound like garbage while a cheap $30 MCS intergrated amp make them sound fantastic,go figure

 

[highfihoney]

On that note, how much audible differnence will I hear if I go to a proper pre/pro? My understanding is that the DACS and the processors in them are far superior to what my Yammy would have.Would love to hear from you folks that have made the switch.

Try not to buy too much into the whole theory of better dac's & all that crap,i'd also advise you not to try to chase a better sound,if your happy with the sound from your yamaha's pre/pro section then stick with it,better sound depends on what each person likes,i prefer to think of it as different sound.

You might like to know that Mcintosh(buku bucks)uses some yamaha parts in their processors so i'd have to think that shows that yamaha's processing technology is top of the food chain.

 

[wire]

Hi wire,ive never had lascala's but i have owned the rest of the heritage line,tried em all with tubes too,right now in my wife's plant/sun room we have a pair of heresy 2's teamed up with a Golden Tube Audio se40 se Tube amp ,I love my heresy's.

Pretty soon im going to pull the GTA tube amp out of there & run an MCS intergrated in that little system,Tubes scare my wife plus the MCS is an excellent little intergrated.

Sweet
I love the Heresy's bars and love to hear a pair hooked up tubes .

 

[wire]

Hi Seth, I have to agree with Hifi, my speakers are super revealing, you hear every little thing with these speaks, thats another reason why alot of people don't like Klipsch, bad recordings are unbearable to my ear with the 83's but when its good its awesome .

On that note, how much audible differnence will I hear if I go to a proper pre/pro? My understanding is that the DACS and the processors in them are far superior to what my Yammy would have.Would love to hear from you folks that have made the switch.

You guys have any comments on why Klipsch recommends minimum amp ratings? As I said before they say the "minimum" for my 83's is 250 RMS...wow, thats a whole lot of juice, I thought my MPS1 was pumping out the current! I suspect its to prevent clipping but man, at 100db sensitivity you would think they wouldn't need that much jam behind them.

Jey
I must say those 83's are pretty nice looking speakers .

 

[Seth=L]

Jey
I must say those 83's are pretty nice looking speakers .

They are very nice sounding as well. The tweeters are some of the most refined to come from Klipsch, it is astounding how smooth they sound.

 

[Jey Jockey]

Hey guys, yea they are sweet looking and sound pretty good too!

Hifi, I have to laff though, you are telling me not to chase sound and you have a few hundred Macks lying around..lol. I think I'm going to get the Emotiva DMC1 and see what its like. If nothing else it looks cool and will match my amp

 

[Seth=L]

All right, I am glad to find this information because I believe this could definitely cause such a speaker to perform differently with different amplifiers.

In the lab

Frequency response (at 2 meters)
front left/right: 43 Hz to 20 kHz ±5.2 dB
center: 99 Hz to 17.8 kHz ±3.8 dB
surround: 117 Hz to 16.6 kHz ±3.9 dB
subwoofer: 46 Hz to 108 Hz ±1.9 dB

Sensitivity (SPL at 1 meter with 2.8 volts of pink-noise input)
front left/right: 96 dB
center: 95 dB
surround: 95 dB

Impedance (minimum/nominal)
front left/right: 2.8/11 ohms
center: 2.8/13 ohms
surround: 3.1/5 ohms

Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room)
front left/right: 32 Hz at 88 dB
center: 40 Hz at 78 dB
surround: 62 Hz at 74 dB
subwoofer: 20 Hz at 91 dB SPL
107 dB average SPL from 25 to 62 Hz
110 dB maximum SPL at 32 Hz
bandwidth uniformity 97%

The efficiency is different from Klipsch's website, which I figured that some specs would be different. And in reality, all speakers have a certain amount of swingage in resistance. Nominal is not a definite term.

 

[Jey Jockey]

Seth, can you explain to me why I would hear the difference? Which I really do, its so noticable that even my wife says, wow.LOL

 

[wire]

Seth, can you explain to me why I would hear the difference? Which I really do, its so noticable that even my wife says, wow.LOL

hehe
Now thats a good Question .

 

[Nuglets]

Ok about the sensitivity thing...My speakers have a 95 dB sensitivity rating and according to my math if I drive my amp close to clipping ~300W/channel both channels driven, I should be able to reach around 119dB from each speaker, right? Well I did some testing with my SPL meter(which isn't entirely accurate throughout the frequency response) and I get peaks of ~109dB when my amplifier goes within 3dB of clipping(when the red lights blink). That implies that just because my speakers are rated at a given sensitivity it seems that they require quite a bit more wattage to achieve a desired level than the mathematical value suggests. My current room is quite small and this is with both speakers playing music while measuring from the listening position.

So even though those Klipsch speakers in are rated at a sensitivity of 100dB I would imagine that it requires quite a bit more power than 1W average power to achieve an average level of 100dB at the listening position which would then explain why the larger amplifier is giving such an improvement with multi-channel audio. In my setup I should be able to reach around 105dB using 10W but considering that when I have the level so it is averaged at ~105dB my 300W/channel amp is getting very close to clipping I'm assuming it's at well over a 10W average.

Can anybody add to this or clarify please?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Seth, can you explain to me why I would hear the difference? Which I really do, its so noticable that even my wife says, wow.LOL

Seth can speak for himself
but, there are a number of reasons:
that dip in impedance evokes misbehavior in an amp but that difference must be where the dip is in the frequency
human bias, including your wife and is not turned on or off

 

[wire]

human bias, including your wife and is not turned on or off

Sorry Jay
mtrycrafts
Does that mean he has to turn on his wife on also ,what if she has a headach ? For the effect to work ?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Ok about the sensitivity thing...My speakers have a 95 dB sensitivity rating and according to my math if I drive my amp close to clipping ~300W/channel both channels driven, I should be able to reach around 119dB from each speaker, right? Well I did some testing with my SPL meter(which isn't entirely accurate throughout the frequency response) and I get peaks of ~109dB when my amplifier goes within 3dB of clipping(when the red lights blink). That implies that just because my speakers are rated at a given sensitivity it seems that they require quite a bit more wattage to achieve a desired level than the mathematical value suggests. My current room is quite small and this is with both speakers playing music while measuring from the listening position.

So even though those Klipsch speakers in are rated at a sensitivity of 100dB I would imagine that it requires quite a bit more power than 1W average power to achieve an average level of 100dB at the listening position which would then explain why the larger amplifier is giving such an improvement with multi-channel audio. In my setup I should be able to reach around 105dB using 10W but considering that when I have the level so it is averaged at ~105dB my 300W/channel amp is getting very close to clipping I'm assuming it's at well over a 10W average.

Can anybody add to this or clarify please?

That is about right How far was the meter? At 12 ft, you loose about 8 dB in a room, different from free space numbers.
So, if you were at your seated position of about 12ft, that would have been about 111dB at clipping, and -3 dB below is 108dB.
The models are pretty accurate. After all, it had to come from something in the past; certainly not from thin air, but from experimentation, lots of it.

Also, remember, what happens to that speaker at 119dB spl? How badly is it distorting, compressing, etc???

 

[Nuglets]

That is about right How far was the meter? At 12 ft, you loose about 8 dB in a room, different from free space numbers.
So, if you were at your seated position of about 12ft, that would have been about 111dB at clipping, and -3 dB below is 108dB.
The models are pretty accurate. After all, it had to come from something in the past; certainly not from thin air, but from experimentation, lots of it.

Also, remember, what happens to that speaker at 119dB spl? How badly is it distorting, compressing, etc???

I'm actually only about 8ft from the speakers. And positioned at the back wall. I'm going to test right now from various spots in the room.

But anyways...would that idea of losing dB at a distance help to explain why, Jey gets a very noticeable difference in multi-channel music when switching from receiver to separates?

 

[Seth=L]

Seth, can you explain to me why I would hear the difference? Which I really do, its so noticable that even my wife says, wow.LOL

The Yamaha receiver has a safe operating range with I believe a minimum of 6 ohms. If the material you are playing digs low or has any frequency that causes the amp to strain due to impedance dips, especially at reference levels, you could have some dynamic compression. Dynamic compression on such a revealing speaker will be, well, revealed.

The Emotiva is better equipped to handle low and high swing impedance, and likely has a better damping factor. It can keep the pace when going gets rough.

Anybody feel free to correct me if I am missing anything, or there is an error in what I say.

 

[Nuglets]

Ok I did some more measuring and mtry, your numbers make sense to me. I put the meter in max mode which I didn't do yesterday, I was just trying to estimate the highest number it peaked at. I get peaks of ~116dB when the amp is withing 3dB of clipping at the listening position. Closer to the speaker though, I get about 117dB max which I'll consider close enough to 119dB considering the 95dB is the 'typical room' sensitivity. I think Seth has a more logical explanation. I just gave myself an excuse to test the loudness capabilities of my system though, thanks.