Adding Amp to Yamaha RX-V2600

[highfihoney]

I probably agree with you more than disagree. I am not at all surprised that a $22000 mcintosh amp sounds identical to a $300 amp in any normal usage. This is why focusing on the amp stage is so ridiculous if you are not going outside it's rated range.

Love totems i do Have you heard the Mani 2's yet,one of the best speakers ive ever heard.

Anyhow about amps,i should point out that i did not say the crown sounds the same as the mcintosh,what i did say was they both sound as good & perform as well as each other,the crown sounds very different from the mcintosh,i should also point out that the crown im refering to is the studio reference series costing $5,000 new not a low range model .

My whole point is that if a guy does his home work & researches pro amps he can find a pro amp of the same quality of a home audio amp.

 

[Nuglets]

I don't think I mean what you think I mean. Sorry if I was unclear.
I am not stating that pro audio are junk. It was more a figure of speach about the whole idea of bypassing the 2600's amp (130watts) with an outboard 100 watt amp with identical ratings and expect anything other than to waste money and probably degrade the signal running it around for no reason. By junk I was more refering to all this focus on outboard amps in general when you might see a .1% difference in actual output while at the same time running completely distorting speakers.

You are also missing the point that the amplifier in the Yamaha is not rated at 130W with all channels driven(which isn't a bad thing by any means). The more channels the receiver has to drive the less headroom the amp has for each channel and adding an extra 2-Channel amp will give a lot of that headroom back for the center and surround channels and give even more for the mains.

To Roger, I would do exactly as HiFi suggested and try some Pro amps out and I'll bet you end up keeping one. You probably won't experience a huge difference in the way it sounds but you will probably feel it gives an extra punch where the Yamaha couldn't keep up. It's all you though, go try out some amps!

 

[Gov]

How much headroom does he need????? He has a fairly powerful receiver and very efficient 8 ohm speakers!! An amp is probably going to get him "zip" unless he is always playing a very high SPL levels. IMHO

 

[Seth=L]

How much headroom does he need????? He has a fairly powerful receiver and very efficient 8 ohm speakers!! An amp is probably going to get him "zip" unless he is always playing a very high SPL levels. IMHO

Yes, if he wants to go deaf he should by an amplifier.

 

[UFObuster]

Yes, if he wants to go deaf he should by an amplifier.

...Seth, Gov.....deaf is a BAD thing...
I may be laboring the point...to put it differently, I hear two general opinions out there (on this board and others): watts per channel = loudness...OR...speakers round out better with higher amplification at same volume. I know my system is "loud" enough...but does more "head room" = higher Quality sound. The big Q is what I'm after. I got the RF-7 speakers after I got the Yammi (130 watts rated). There is some opionion that the Klipsch RF-7 needs extra power (about 200) to play thru some low impedance swings....whatever that means. I'm not an engineer so I'm needing a little expert help here. Does more wattage just = more loudness? Or will I notice a quality improvement with the extra help. There already are a few posts on this thread that suggest so...and it's a subject on other threads too. How about it HiFiHoney.....where are you on this issue?
thanks
Roger

 

[MDS]

Let me take a crack at this (never ending ) amplifier controversey.

'Headroom' does not equal 'sound quality' except when you need it; ie loud transients can require up to 10x the power to reproduce accurately. In other words, your 100 wpc receiver may be using only a few watts the majority of time but as soon as it needs the huge increase in power it can't keep up and an external amp may be better up to the task.

Don't get lost in the watts == better sound quality nonsense. If you have a 250 wpc amp, except for those brief transients when playing at a loud level, it will never use more than a few watts. So at 'normal' listening levels it will sound no different than the receiver alone - except for those amps that are 'voiced'; ie colored to impart their own particular sound quality.

I love the notion that X speakers 'need a lot of power to sound their best'. That statement makes NO logical sense whatsoever. That is equivalent to saying these speakers absolutely suck at low listening levels. Higher power won't help you through low impedance. Low impedance requires more CURRENT but of course voltage, current, and power are related so an external amp that can supply the current can supply more power as well.

As has said been said already, at normal listening levels an external amp will not likely buy you anything. At loud levels it will be more suited to dealing with transients and is usually more suited to driving low impedance loads.

If you have a large room and/or like to listen at very loud levels an external amp could be a worthwhile purchase; otherwise it is a waste of money. My little Onkyo 502 can get so loud you can't stand it in 16x18x9 room. When pushed really hard you can tell that it is struggling but I can't stand that level for long anyway.

 

[Seth=L]

...Seth, Gov.....deaf is a BAD thing...
I may be laboring the point...to put it differently, I hear two general opinions out there (on this board and others): watts per channel = loudness...OR...speakers round out better with higher amplification at same volume. I know my system is "loud" enough...but does more "head room" = higher Quality sound. The big Q is what I'm after. I got the RF-7 speakers after I got the Yammi (130 watts rated). There is some opionion that the Klipsch RF-7 needs extra power (about 200) to play thru some low impedance swings....whatever that means. I'm not an engineer so I'm needing a little expert help here. Does more wattage just = more loudness? Or will I notice a quality improvement with the extra help. There already are a few posts on this thread that suggest so...and it's a subject on other threads too. How about it HiFiHoney.....where are you on this issue?
thanks
Roger

Have your speakers ever sounded like they were straining or the sound was flattening out at higher volumes? If so, add an amp, if not then adding an amplifier is not necessary. Done

 

[Seth=L]

Let me take a crack at this (never ending ) amplifier controversey.

'Headroom' does not equal 'sound quality' except when you need it; ie loud transients can require up to 10x the power to reproduce accurately. In other words, your 100 wpc receiver may be using only a few watts the majority of time but as soon as it needs the huge increase in power it can't keep up and an external amp may be better up to the task.

Don't get lost in the watts == better sound quality nonsense. If you have a 250 wpc amp, except for those brief transients when playing at a loud level, it will never use more than a few watts. So at 'normal' listening levels it will sound no different than the receiver alone - except for those amps that are 'voiced'; ie colored to impart their own particular sound quality.

I love the notion that X speakers 'need a lot of power to sound their best'. That statement makes NO logical sense whatsoever. That is equivalent to saying these speakers absolutely suck at low listening levels. Higher power won't help you through low impedance. Low impedance requires more CURRENT but of course voltage, current, and power are related so an external amp that can supply the current can supply more power as well.

As has said been said already, at normal listening levels an external amp will not likely buy you anything. At loud levels it will be more suited to dealing with transients and is usually more suited to driving low impedance loads.

If you have a large room and/or like to listen at very loud levels an external amp could be a worthwhile purchase; otherwise it is a waste of money. My little Onkyo 502 can get so loud you can't stand it in 16x18x9 room. When pushed really hard you can tell that it is struggling but I can't stand that level for long anyway.

Huh, I used to own a 502. I needed to put fans on it to keep it cool when powering the power hungry PSBs I used to have.

And I completely agree with every typen word.

 

[MDS]

Huh, I used to own a 502. I needed to put fans on it to keep it cool when powering the power hungry PSBs I used to have.

...and as I told you before mine runs cool as a cucumber.

 

[Seth=L]

...and as I told you before mine runs cool as a cucumber.

I wish mine ran that cool. But wouldn't you have problems with moisture?

What speakers are you using.

PM me if you want.

 

[Gov]

Let me take a crack at this (never ending ) amplifier controversey.

'Headroom' does not equal 'sound quality' except when you need it; ie loud transients can require up to 10x the power to reproduce accurately. In other words, your 100 wpc receiver may be using only a few watts the majority of time but as soon as it needs the huge increase in power it can't keep up and an external amp may be better up to the task.

Don't get lost in the watts == better sound quality nonsense. If you have a 250 wpc amp, except for those brief transients when playing at a loud level, it will never use more than a few watts. So at 'normal' listening levels it will sound no different than the receiver alone - except for those amps that are 'voiced'; ie colored to impart their own particular sound quality.

I love the notion that X speakers 'need a lot of power to sound their best'. That statement makes NO logical sense whatsoever. That is equivalent to saying these speakers absolutely suck at low listening levels. Higher power won't help you through low impedance. Low impedance requires more CURRENT but of course voltage, current, and power are related so an external amp that can supply the current can supply more power as well.

As has said been said already, at normal listening levels an external amp will not likely buy you anything. At loud levels it will be more suited to dealing with transients and is usually more suited to driving low impedance loads.

If you have a large room and/or like to listen at very loud levels an external amp could be a worthwhile purchase; otherwise it is a waste of money. My little Onkyo 502 can get so loud you can't stand it in 16x18x9 room. When pushed really hard you can tell that it is struggling but I can't stand that level for long anyway.

Excellent post!! You summed it up very well. Whenever I feel the urge to consider getting an amp again, I will re-read this!!

Thanks for that input!

 

[highfihoney]

How about it HiFiHoney.....where are you on this issue?
thanks
Roger

Hi roger,my veiws on amplification are strickly for 2 channel systems or listening in 2 channel with no sub,there is way too much going on with 5 speakers not to mention internal xovers set to send any demanding material away from the recievers amp & passing it off to a more powerfull amp within the sub.

With that being said i believe that more power = better all around performance,i also believe that an amplifier should be chosen that at the very least is able to produce the max rms for the speakers in question when it is being fed a full range signal.

Woofers require power & lots of it too,ever seen a really good highly regarded subwoofer out there that is capable of high spl's with a 80 watt amp? I never have.

Peaks are a real issue & demand power,if the amplifier does not have enough power in reserve to cover demanding peaks it will result in loss of dynamics,increased distortion levels & short term clipping.

I also do not subscribe to the all amps sound the same theory,if differences in amplifiers can be shown visually they can be heard also.

 

[Electone]

After reading this post, I gave this a try last night. I posted a question a few years back about this situation, but never bothered to try powering my front main speakers externally.

I am using a Yamaha RX-V2400 and a NAD 3240PE integrated (that has pre-out/amp in connections). I re-ran the YPAO for level match. I noticed that when powered internally by the Yamaha, the front speakers were set at +1.0 db. But when I ran YPAO with the fronts hooked up to the NAD, they are now set to +8.0 db. Lower input voltage on the NAD perhaps?

Anyway, did I notice any difference in the sound quality? Not really. I've always thought that the NAD was a warmer sounding amplifier and it has gobs of power. So, in theory, the Yamaha should have less strain on it now that my power-hungry 4-ohm KEF C95s are being juiced by the NAD.

 

[Yamaholic]

Long time lurker, first time poster...

Hello everyone. I have been enjoying reading all of these discussion forums for some time now.

Perhaps I can help, since I also have a Yamaha receiver and used an external amp for some time.

I own a HTR-6090 receiver which is rated at 120 watts per channel. I also have an Anthem PVA-2 power amplifier rated for 105 watts per channel (conservative rating.) I thought I would give the Yamaha amp a little help since my front speakers are Paradigm Reference Studio 60v3 speakers.

Long story short, I noticed little to no difference in sound quality or volume. However, let me preface that by saying that I live in an apartment and my sound room measures 16' by 12' by 9'. Obviously, living in an apartment (wanting to keep good relations with my neighbors), I keep the volume levels at "moderate" levels.

Even though the Anthem is an excellent amplifer, I noticed no real difference in sound quality, even at low volumes. So, I reattached the speakers back to the Yamaha. The Yamaha's amplifier section is quite stout and I would imagine that unless you are driving very difficult speakers to obnoxiously loud levels in a huge room, you really would not need another amp.

I look forward to becoming involved in the community.
Chris.

 

[highfihoney]

I re-ran the YPAO for level match.

Now somebody correct me if im wrong,isnt the ypao a parametric eq

The ypao not only adjusts amplifier gain it also adjusts frequency response & the q factor,these are not small issues,im not knocking yamaha's ypao,i think its an awesome tool but using it for a comparison between amplifiers will not show true results.

Using any eq in amplifier comparisons will taint the results,weather the eq is parametric or graphic.

 

[Electone]

Now somebody correct me if im wrong,isnt the ypao a parametric eq

The ypao not only adjusts amplifier gain it also adjusts frequency response & the q factor,these are not small issues,im not knocking yamaha's ypao,i think its an awesome tool but using it for a comparison between amplifiers will not show true results.

Using any eq in amplifier comparisons will taint the results,weather the eq is parametric or graphic.

You can turn off various aspects of the YPAO sequence. If you only want to check for level, you select "SKIP" for the other parameters. I have never used the wiring check or parametric equalizer section of YPAO, but the automatic speaker level and distance check work very well.

 

[moverton]

Love totems i do Have you heard the Mani 2's yet,one of the best speakers ive ever heard.

I haven't listended to them. The Tabu is the same design except it doesn't have the two mid-base's locked together, just one. I have auditioned the Winds, they were incredible but out of my range at 6k.
As you might have figured out, I work real hard to spend the least money for the most sound quality. I bought the Tabu's used for $750/pair. Awesome buy. I haven't seen the Mani's go for less than $2000 used.

 

[Nuglets]

Long story short, I noticed little to no difference in sound quality or volume.
Chris.

Same thing here...When I first got my amp I was actually quite disappointed that I didn't hear a night and day difference in sound quality. I was like what the hell...it sounds exactly the same and I just spent $600?!?! This was at the time I used my Cerwin Vega's and was strictly seeking the amount of bass that the previous owner used to get from them and I didn't get any increase whatsoever when I connected my amp. I then decided to try out a graphic EQ to boost the lows(mainly because the bass tone control in my old Denon seems centered around the midbass region and does nothing for the low frequencies) and wow did I get what I was looking for...Earth shaking bass, far more than my powered sub could ever dream of putting out!! Now I'm not quite as much of a bass freak as before and I don't use that EQ anymore because I am more than satisfied with the bass from my current speakers, but I still use my amp and believe that I'm doing my speakers a favor, especially when giving people a taste of the system's capabilities, because of the simple fact that my amplifier indicates when it is within 3dB of clipping so I have a greater awareness of volume limitations without having to listen for clipping/compression to indicate that it's too loud. Now I realize that I can go deaf quite quickly listening at high volumes like that but I do have parties once in a while and we don't huddle around the speakers, we are usually on the opposite side of the house and I feel much more comfortable cranking up the volume without worrying about damaging the drivers from a clipping amplifier. I also just like knowing that I can drive my speakers to very high levels without the slightest hint of compression or distortion. It must be a competitive man thing.

To Roger...my speakers also have a fairly high sensitivity and I am constantly driving my amp near clipping which tells me that if I attempt to get the SPL's I crank out of them now with my receiver, I am risking the 'life' of my speakers as well as the receiver so that alone is more than enough reason for me to have a solid 300W/channel vs. the 90W that my receiver can output. Like has been said already, it's all about YOU and YOU only. If you get an amp and you think the benefit outweighs the cost then you are in the same boat as us 'separate' users. If you get an amp and realize it's just too much money for a minimal difference in sound quality then take it back and feel good knowing that you tried it out for yourself and realize that you just don't it.

And if you can't tell...I'm bored and can't stop typing.

 

[gcmarshall]

my experience with yamaha rx-v2500 and external 225 wpc stereo amp....

agreed that at low listening levels the amp made zero detectable difference.

at medium to higher volumes, the amp had more oooomph, more precision, more bass, etc.

at very loud volumes (for example if i turned it up loud enough to allow enough volume for listening when i was in a different, but adjacent room of the house, the music never misses a beat and is powerful enough to make it feel like a live concert.

in summary, my experience has been that at low volumes, an external amp is a waste of money. at more demanding levels, an external amp (in my case at 225 claimed wpc versus my yammies 130 claimed wpc) provides power and detail that sets itself apart.

is it worth thousands of dollars for a separate amp? no. be sure you always first spend your money on important things like healthcare, savings, a roof over your head, etc. but, if all that is taken care of, and you love powerful loud music, an external amp CAN and DOES make a difference with demanding source material and at demanding volumes.

 

[highfihoney]

be sure you always first spend your money on important things like healthcare, savings, a roof over your head, etc. but, if all that is taken care of.

Words to live by for sure.