I know, its the same question again, but there is a different twist! (SVS/Outlaw/HSU)

[Bradleyfs]

My home theater room is 15 x 20 with 20 foot ceiling (not to mention its open on one side to the kitchen). So, if you actually attempt calculate volume, its more than 6000 cubic feet, which means according to Velodyne, I need to buy there $15,000 sub to get great sound (not gonna happen in this lifetime!)

Oddly enough however, despite what calculates out to be a hugh room, the accoustimas 'POS' sub I have (with two 5 1/4 drivers - yippee), actually sounds almost bass like. (Please don't say it, I was young and dumb with the Bose thing, I'm now trying to do it right!).

In any event, I only have a maximum of $1,300.00 to spend. After driving myself crazy researching every sub I have heard of (and some that I hadn't), I determined that I would get the SVS PB12-Plus/2 (I figured two 12 inch drivers half to be better than one). I wasn't overly excited that it was huge, 140 pounds, not WAF, and I essentially have to take of work to have it delivered, but it seemed like the right sub for my room. Its at the very upper end of my price range however. So I go to order it and once you factor in shipping, I about $16.00 over my limit, fine. However, for some odd reason, if you have the damn thing shipped to Michigan, you have to pay sales tax (because apparently SVS has sufficient connection to the State of Michigan.
That puts me almost to the $1,400 mark. I know its not that much, but after my wife and I almost killed each other, we settled our dispute by firm saying I could spend no more than $1,300.

I called the guys at SVS and tried to work a deal with them. Other than the 10% discount already factored in, they will simply not budge. They were nice, and helpful all along, but just won't budge a bit.

The only replacement I could come up with that seemed like it might do just as well, was the HSU VTF-3 HO. I'm not quite sure how it can compete with an SVS Unit with 2 12 inch drivers, but the reviews seem to suggest it might be able to (it was very comparable - and better in some respects) to the PB12 Plus Ultra (but that is a single driver unit). The good about the HSU is that it is more WAF and actually would save about $300 as well. So here are the questions:

1) Despite the HSU 1 driver and SVS 12 drivers, the specs on the HSU still seem to have it comparable to SVS (it may even acheive greater SPL - and I don't understand that one). However, due to the size of my HT room (which is truly just tall ceiling rather than large foot print), am I going to loose more in terms of performance by going to the HSU than the reviews suggest?

2) Now looking on here, I see that I can buy TWO Outlaw LFM-1 Plus', for less than I can get the PB12 Plus/2 and not much more than I can get the HSU. How can this be? Is that something I should consider? Or I could just get one Outlaw LFM-1 Plus and save even more. Thoughts?

3) Is the SVS so much better than the other options that a) its worth the extra money and b) its worth getting into another yelling match with my wife regarding exceeding my limit?

I know you get these questions all the time, and I apologize. I am just at my wits end. I have to make a final decision because this constant researching is taking over my life. If anyone can point out anything that would help me make a final decision, I would appreciate it. I think after my Bose mistake, I'm overly concerned about making the wrong choice! Thanks.

 

[no. 5]

Well, I really don't think any of those would be 'bad' choices, but personaly, I would go with the two LFM-1 Plus'.

Having two subs will give you much more even bass distribution.

 

[mike c]

Velodyne DLS-5000R X 2 = I think is less than 1300 USD over there.

SVS PB12 NSD x 2 = less than 1300 USD

SVS PCi 25-31 x 2 = less than 1300 USD

you can stack the first two options ...

the third option will take no more space than a single plus/2

if the subwoofer won't be that far from you ... and the bose bass module did pretty well ... any single one of your choices will do great.

but seriously, just tell your wife it was 1300 bucks. figure out a way to send the 100 bucks apart from the other 1300 bucks, so that the receipt or paperwork that comes with the sub reflects 1300 bucks.

 

[mike c]

after thinking for awhile.

could it be that you need the money for something more important? like bills or something? if yes, just buy a single cheaper sub.

if no, see my other post.

 

[Seth=L]

I wonder if you could just pick it up at the SVS factory/Shipping center in Ohio. That might save some argument, just don't mention gas prices to the wife. You could always sell something, like your wifes jewelry in order to afford the SVS.

 

[Bradleyfs]

You are all right and raising options I didn't consider. Even though I know it would be better, I'm shying away from doing two subwoofers. I think two of them would be less WAF than one large one (she doesn't quite understand why I even need one!).

The Accoustimas situation is strange. It certainly doesn't shake the walls or anything, but it is audible. That leads me to believe either the HSU or the Outlaw would be sufficient. On the other hand, my mind tells me that 2 12 inch drivers are going to move more air, thus the PB12-Plus/2 will be more effective. However, the reviews on either the HSU or the Outlaw (especially the HSU), say that these things kick, so maybe I don't need the Plus/2.

I'm sure any of the three would be fine (and certainly better than what I have now). I just can't seem to find the logic which clearly points to one of the three!

(The dual Cylinders was an interesting suggestion however, I didn't even consider those before).

 

[KC23]

I suggest you take a look at the Axiom (at axiomaudio.com) EP500. I think it fits all your requirements. Audioholics.com site has an extremely good review of it as well. The price includes shipping and they'll be no tax since it is from Canada. Off the main page look at the factory outlit pricing. Take more time to get it to you, but you'll save some money.

 

[WmAx]

....

Here is an option that would yield the best sound quality by far, and is within your stated budget, but it carries a compromise(that the wife might beat you for taking): Purchase 6 to 8 lower price subwoofers of 'decent' quality, such as the Dayton Audio 12" units from Parts Express. When you place multiple bass sources around the room, the bass response evens out [1] [2] optimally(and at all positions in the room -- every spot is the 'sweet spot'), and also, you would have virtually unlimited(for any conceivable practical purpose) dynamic range for bass, compared to almost any single or double subwoofer you could buy, regardless of price. Because of the sheer number of sources, each one would contribute very little on it's own, and as a result, stay well within it's linear operating range(very low distortion), and you still have a massive SPL potential for extreme LF dynamics.

If you can think of how to get the wife to accept these as perhaps, 'plant' stands around the room, it would be well worth the sound quality increase.

-Chris

Footnotes
[1]Multiple Subwoofers for Home Theater
Nousaine, Tom
AES Preprint: 4558

[2]How Many Subwoofers are Enough?
Welti, Todd
AES Preprint: 5602

 

[Davemcc]

You could always explain to your wife that,

"The original decision is extremely well researched and the other solutions are merely stopgaps that will ultimately not produce the desired result. For the 10 to 15 years that this piece will be with us, the extra $100 is money well spent to do things right the first time and not have to revisit the issue, at more expense, later."

 

[Bradleyfs]

Dave, you know what, when you said "the other solutions are merely stopgaps that will ultimately not produce the desired result.", you may have just stumbled upon the ultimate question. I'm not sure if the above statement is true or not. Let me explain why.

The extremely detailed reviews I have found have compared the HSU VTR-3 HO to the SVS PB12-Ultra (ultra, but single driver). Between those two models, they are both incredibly great performers, and are extremely comparable. My summation of all all the reviews is that:

1) Both are incredible.

2) The SVS PB12-Ultra seems to get a little edge in going really really super low.

3) The HSU seems to get a little edge above 25hz and midbass (which actually means it might work better integrating with bookshelf main speakers for music purposes).

Thus, if it were a choice simply between these two, I would probably go with the HSU simply because 1) its less expensive and 2) I use Bookshelf mains (although a majority of my listening is HT).

However, the ultimate comparison is between the SVS PB12-Plus/2 (two drivers) and the VTR-3 HO - with consideration as to the calculated size of my room. The problem is that I have found no comparisons between the HSU and Plus/2, nor can I find a comparison between the Plus (single driver) and the Plus/2. As such, I am not able to determine whether the Plus/2 has that much of an advantage over the HSU HO. I think this is the ultimate question!

By the way - you still haven't gotten your SVS? I'm right across the border in Detroit, next time have it shipped to my house and just come pick it up!


As with respect to the AXIOM, again, it is another incredible unit at a great price. However, I didn't see anything that truly makes it different from the SVS or HSU.

I love the idea of the 6 subs. That would be awesome. However, I would probably be better off just suggesting that my wife and I live in separate homes!

 

[Matt34]

Dave, you know what, when you said "the other solutions are merely stopgaps that will ultimately not produce the desired result.", you may have just stumbled upon the ultimate question. I'm not sure if the above statement is true or not. Let me explain why.

The extremely detailed reviews I have found have compared the HSU VTR-3 HO to the SVS PB12-Ultra (ultra, but single driver). Between those two models, they are both incredibly great performers, and are extremely comparable. My summation of all all the reviews is that:

1) Both are incredible.

2) The SVS PB12-Ultra seems to get a little edge in going really really super low.

3) The HSU seems to get a little edge above 25hz and midbass (which actually means it might work better integrating with bookshelf main speakers for music purposes).

The Ultra is in a much higher price bracket(out of the OP price range) than the VTF-3HO. Now comparing the PB12-2+ to the VTF3-HO I think it opposite is true. The VTF-3 will dig deeper while the -2+ will have more output above 25-30hz.

If it were me I'd wait for either(in no particular order):

1. A used SVS PB12-2plus(they are out there, just got to be patience)

2. Wait for the release of the Onix MFW-15's and get duals(special pricing).
http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=15788

3. Get one HSU VTF3.3 now, save up for another one later.

4. Buy two of the Rythmik Audio RS15 servo kits and either build your own boxes or get some prefabbed ones. http://www.rythmikaudio.com/servo_product.htm

 

[Wid]

I would just get the Hsu VTF 3.3 with the turbo and be done with it. Craigsub had it pretty high on his list.

 

[no. 5]

You are all right and raising options I didn't consider. Even though I know it would be better, I'm shying away from doing two subwoofers. I think two of them would be less WAF than one large one (she doesn't quite understand why I even need one!).

Here is a cunning plain for convincing your wife of the need of a subwoofer; tell her that you will return the sub(s) if they are not better than what you have now, sign your name on a piece of paper that says the as much, and hold yourself to it. Leave the Accoustimas set-up. When the sub(s) arrive, set them up (i.e. crawl for bass, level match, bass management), then have your wife listen to a piece of music at a normal listening volume with the Accoustimas, then the same piece with the new sub(s) (again normal volume), then without the sub(s).
It doesn’t have to be bass heavy music, just some Beethoven, or Jack Johnson, or a movie sound track will do fine.

As with respect to the AXIOM, again, it is another incredible unit at a great price. However, I didn't see anything that truly makes it different from the SVS or HSU.

Prettier finishes.

 

[Warpdrv]

I personally in your same predicament, went with an Plus/2, as my room is even bigger then what you have. I have 8200 cu.ft. I also have to tell you that I don't have my sub turned up past 3 or the 10 o'clock setting. this thing gets extremely loud. I was thinking I could have gotten away with a single Plus. Im not sure if you need something as big as this, but I sure love mine and wouldn't trade it for anything right now...

Both HSU, and that Axiom EP500 have gotten awesome reviews, and would fit into your budget better.

Also, I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to save some good cash, and go to the SVS B-Stock page... They have a couple of PB-12 Plus's for $850. I think they would fit very well in your situation, and you could always add another later...

good luck...

 

[abboudc]

I'd go with a HSU VTF-HO w/Turbo. $1000 + shipping.

Or, if you have your heart set on the Plus/2, pick one up on Audiogon. They regularly sell for less than $1k there.
Plus/2 for $950
(just noticed that one is pick up only, but you should be able to find another one)

Seriously though, going from an acoustimass to either of these is like going from a go kart to a McLaren F1.

 

[j_garcia]

The room being tall is actually a bigger problem than it would seem because the bass gets up there and can get "lost" more easily, your room is not to bad of a ratio, but I thin with one side and the ceiling being the same distance, that room will be a little tough. Having said that, I'd probably just go with an HO or a single Plus, unless you are looking for real bass output, meaning serious levels of wow. Either of those will already give you plenty of quality bass.

The reason the Bose bass modules sound good is because they are designed to operate in a specific range. You get a lot of 40-50Hz, which is very audible, vs real bass that is in the 25Hz and lower range.

 

[Warpdrv]

I'd go with a HSU VTF-HO w/Turbo. $1000 + shipping.

Or, if you have your heart set on the Plus/2, pick one up on Audiogon. They regularly sell for less than $1k there.
Plus/2 for $950
(just noticed that one is pick up only, but you should be able to find another one)
Seriously though, going from an acoustimass to either of these is like going from a go kart to a McLaren F1.

If you don't mind the look of the turbo.... That sub is really at the top of some peoples short list... I would love to hear one.. never had the chance.
Between the Plus/2 and the VTR-3 HO, The svs will have a much larger SPL, sheer headroom.. I doubt you will ever turn the gain up much more then 3 or 4, it will just downright over power your speakers, which begs the question, do you really need all that? that which you will never use...
Too bad you can't just buy a PB12-ultra. That would be right up your alley, I only mention it, as they make such pretty looking, furniture grade looking subs. People are amazed that the end table, puts out amazing bass...

It is such a hard descision to make, buying a sub without hearing it...
Every sub mentioned here, are within inches of each other in terms of performance. HSU, Axiom, SVS, or Onix.

Im so glad my descision making is over... but now Im bored... all the excitement gone over what to get... heheheh

Ship it to a friend in IL. and save the tax. Where abouts are you located..?
The Plus/2 really handles huge rooms quite well... fills my entire first floor of my house...

 

[Bradleyfs]

I live in the Detroit area. I would drive and pick the darn thing up but it would cost me more in gas!

Well all of this is definately helping me focus. I do want the PB12-Plus/2, but probably not because it makes the most sense for me, more because I want the biggest, baddest, meanest sub I can get for the money. But this is probably not the best way to shop.

So I decided I would do the HSU VTR-3 HO with Turbo. I based the decision bascially on the fact that it will save me over $300, it has a 7 year warranty (yes, 7 year warranty) and it may actually integrate better with my little bookshelf mains (not to mention I can move the think around myself). However, I have to say this (sorry Dr. HSU), the worst part about this decision is that the turbo module is the cheapest, dumbest looking thing I've seen in years. I know it works great, but it looks like a half-assed, afterthought actually detracts from such a well designed sub. I actually cringe thinking that thing is going to sitting in my living room (but I am hoping that due to some strange laws of physics which only apply in my living room that I won't need to use the Turbo).

Well, for a short moment, I thought the decision was made and this self made hell would end - I WAS WRONG! I spoke with HSU today and they are out of stock of the VTR-3 HO. They won't be getting any in until the end of this month. In addition, I have to guess another 7 days ground shipping from California to Michigan. I really don't think I can wait that long so I may just have to do the SVS after all (I just now have to unconvince myself that the HSU was a better fit!)

Not to muck things up anymore, but at one point in time there was one other sub I was considering - the Earthquake Super Nova MK-IV. Lists for $2,700 but lots of people said on here that you could get them for $1,400 delivered. I can't find anyone selling them for close that price. I did see a used one on audiogon, but I can't bring myself to spend this much on a used sub which I have no idea how it was treated and which has no warranty.

You know, if I keep obsessing over this I'm going to lose my job and then I won't be buying any subwoofer at all!

 

[Seth=L]

Not to muck things up anymore, but at one point in time there was one other sub I was considering - the Earthquake Super Nova MK-IV. Lists for $2,700 but lots of people said on here that you could get them for $1,400 delivered. I can't find anyone selling them for close that price. I did see a used one on audiogon, but I can't bring myself to spend this much on a used sub which I have no idea how it was treated and which has no warranty.

You know, if I keep obsessing over this I'm going to lose my job and then I won't be buying any subwoofer at all!

I haven't had good experiance with the passive/driven cube speakers. I used to have a Sunfire True Sub and it was total crap for the money. Lucky for me I didn't pay retail.

Now I cannot say anything about the Earthquake subs, and certainly not one as large as the Earthquake Super Nova MK-IV. It may be a very good subwoofer but I would bet the SVS would be a better bargain. When you look at the Earthquake subs you are paying more for it's small footprint than it's performance. I think the SVS would look better anyway.

 

[Wid]

Why not opt for the VTF 3.3 with turbo. From what I have read you wouldn't be giving up much in the performance department.