Flat speaker frequency response in room = bad?

BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I was watching Erin's YouTube video on FR response, and he stated that speakers that measure flat in the room sound terrible. I felt that his explanation in the video didn't sound sufficiently well-explained, at least not for me.
Can anyone provide a different or better explanation?

 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I was watching Erin's YouTube video on FR response, and he stated that speakers that measure flat in the room sound terrible. I felt that his explanation in the video didn't sound sufficiently well-explained, at least not for me.
Can anyone provide a different or better explanation?

I'll take a stab at a passable explanation... ;)

I think a Speaker that measures flat in room will likely be devoid of satisfactory bass. When looking at Anechoic measurements (or quasi-), you will see flat responses which usually indicate that the Speaker is neutral and not overly colored. When put in-room, that response changes and the room give that boost down low, resulting in the downward tilt that we expect to see for "good" in-room response. For example:
1769454345495.png

and:
1769454367012.png


You see this trend pretty much everywhere in a "desirable" Speaker and when the line drifts from that, you see more unfavorable descriptions.
For example:
1769454530064.png

And:
1769454551704.png


We also know Erin has some distinct preferences, which is fine. He usually is very good at distinguishing between his preference on the subjective side and good science on the objective. However, it hasn't prevented some reviews from being skewed slightly, as his preference might shift.

Regardless, trying to make a Speaker flat, in-room, takes away from what makes it sound more exciting. In contrast, a smooth in-room decline from low frequency to high gives us a different feel.

Based on several conversations I've had, this should happen naturally with almost any well-designed Speaker in a medium-to-small room where there is some boundary reinforcement.

That's my shot in the dark. No, I did not watch his vid, though I likely will later. :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think Erin meant FLAT BASS sounds bad or “anemic”.

And Treble that doesn’t TAPER downward beyond 8-10kHz may sound “Bright” or “Fatiguing” or “Harsh”.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I was watching Erin's YouTube video on FR response, and he stated that speakers that measure flat in the room sound terrible. I felt that his explanation in the video didn't sound sufficiently well-explained, at least not for me.
Can anyone provide a different or better explanation?

You do not want a flat response at the listening position. That sounds bright and unpleasant.

The 1 meter axis response should be as flat as possible. The off axis response will fall off in the top end a little, however it should closely mirror the on axis response.

At the listening position there will be a mix of direct and reflected sound. The reflected sound will have HF roll off, and at the listening position there will be an HF roll off which sounds natural. I flat in room response will not sound good. It will be bad.

1 meter axis response of one of my main speakers.



On and off axis responses 1 meter.



Response at the listening position. MLP.



That sounds very good.

These recordings are from omni mic which rolls off above 15 KHz.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Just seems reference is one thing, preference another. I like my systems to be close to reference before I tweak for preference....
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Just seems reference is one thing, preference another. I like my systems to be close to reference before I tweak for preference....
And somewhat requires some allowance for that preference in your choices for the system.....
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
And somewhat requires some allowance for that preference in your choices for the system.....
Not sure about that. Speakers are set up and designed for optimal performance with the standard 1 meter measurement on and off axis. After that the room does the rest, and in this room it does not need touching. So there is zero need to Audyssey or Dirac. It sounds very, very good and does not need touching.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Not sure about that. Speakers are set up and designed for optimal performance with the standard 1 meter measurement on and off axis. After that the room does the rest, and in this room it does not need touching. So there is zero need to Audyssey or Dirac. It sounds very, very good and does not need touching.
Most of us use REW + UMIK-1 (each has a unique serial number and calibration file) for measurements because this is considered to be very accurate.

What software + Mic are you using?
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Flat is for testing, to make sure the speakers can reproduce the signals fed to them in controlled testing. It's easy to send controlled amplitude signals and make changes to the speakers, as needed. If they were to test in rooms that are similar to listening rooms, how could they possibly achieve consistent accuracy when listening rooms aren't built to any kind of standards?

I'm not saying that in-room response isn't valid or valuable, but for testing, they need as few variables as possible.

Flat response at the listening positions doesn't sound great, a slight downward tilt from low to high frequencies with smooth rsponse is much better.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Hi Mark and thanks for putting in the effort to reply and provide relevant screenshots of measurements.

You do not want a flat response at the listening position. That sounds bright and unpleasant.

The 1 meter axis response should be as flat as possible. The off axis response will fall off in the top end a little, however it should closely mirror the on axis response.
This part mainly repeats the same information mentioned in the video and provides similar measurements, but doesn't address my question - Why does it (flat response at the sitting position) sound bad?"

At the listening position there will be a mix of direct and reflected sound. The reflected sound will have HF roll off, and at the listening position there will be an HF roll off which sounds natural.
This part describes most rooms and speaker interaction behavior, but again doesn't explain the why.

flat in room response will not sound good. It will be bad.
- Am I supposed to blindly believe this statement?

I'm not trying to sound combative. I really wanted to understand this phenomenon/behavior.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I really wanted to understand this phenomenon/behavior.
I believe it to be because it sounds natural. Like if you were standing in the middle of an orchestra and then walked out of it you sort of already know what you would hear regarding the amplitude of the various frequencies being played. So a speaker that replicates that due to good engineering wins. Or even a human voice. I know what it sounds like being yelled at by SWMBO. And I know what it sounds like as I run for my life while she's yelling. The higher, shrill tones fade faster as I create space in between us. It's science. :D
 
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