Problems with Bass in my small HT.

[Insidious]

Hi all, I finally made time to make this post, hopefully someone can help me figure this out and we can all learn something new in the process! I'm having issues getting my bass right in this small room. I've attached a old mockup I made when trying to figure out the layout, please disregard the placements of everything, I did not end up laying it out this way, I can't find my other mockups, so please refer to this attachment for room size only not layout of speakers and sofa.

I have two Rythmik F18s one between my front left and center and the other between my front right and center. I have a feeling this may be part of my problem, but with such a small room, there's not a lot of options for sub placement. IMO the only other place I could put them would be directly behind my sitting position, to test this, I'd need to get a longer cable, so only want to go that route if going near field subs would be a possible fix.

My front speakers are all SVS ultras "bookshelf" speakers and my surrounds are NHTs. I also have Atmos in ceiling speakers from Klipsch. It's a LOT for such a small room, maybe too much, but no going back now.

My issue is I know these F18s should pack a punch! I watched/read so many reviews before purchasing them. However, I've really struggled getting them to do this. This is probably an issues with my room. Oh I almost forgot, I did sound treat this room, with GIK panels, I have a couple different panels from them, won't go into that unless someone needs more info.

Things I've tried:

Dirac Live with Bass Control:
This didn't really change my bass at all at first. Since then I've tweaked the curve, though honestly I'm not sure what I'm doing there so I used a Harman curve I found online. This curve can be used for +4DB up to +10DB for more bass output, this did help add some bass. I found the plus 10 is fatiguing on the ears, though honestly I don't really feel more bass, but yet my ears do get fatigued on +10db curve, I thought this was a bit odd. I try to keep my volume around -30 to -25 DB. The problem I have here is sometimes dialog can be hard to understand at those levels depending on the media being watched. So then I end up at -20db SOMETIMES even down to -18db. Maybe caused by being too close to my speakers?

Different sub pos:
I've tried separating the subs when I first got them, it's been a while, but this didn't really help at least at the time. Like I said to have both subs together the only place would be where they are now or right behind my sofa.

I've thought about trying to get them in the front corners of the room, the problem with that is my front left and right speaker would have to be moved way to close to the center OR they'd have to be right in front of the sub, which may put them too close to my MLP.


I've attached some screen shots of Dirac live readings and named them accordingly. I didn't mess with the cross over or any other setting other than the Harman curve.


Thanks for taking the time to read all that!

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi all, I finally made time to make this post, hopefully someone can help me figure this out and we can all learn something new in the process! I'm having issues getting my bass right in this small room. I've attached a old mockup I made when trying to figure out the layout, please disregard the placements of everything, I did not end up laying it out this way, I can't find my other mockups, so please refer to this attachment for room size only not layout of speakers and sofa.

I have two Rythmik F18s one between my front left and center and the other between my front right and center. I have a feeling this may be part of my problem, but with such a small room, there's not a lot of options for sub placement. IMO the only other place I could put them would be directly behind my sitting position, to test this, I'd need to get a longer cable, so only want to go that route if going near field subs would be a possible fix.

My front speakers are all SVS ultras "bookshelf" speakers and my surrounds are NHTs. I also have Atmos in ceiling speakers from Klipsch. It's a LOT for such a small room, maybe too much, but no going back now.

My issue is I know these F18s should pack a punch! I watched/read so many reviews before purchasing them. However, I've really struggled getting them to do this. This is probably an issues with my room. Oh I almost forgot, I did sound treat this room, with GIK panels, I have a couple different panels from them, won't go into that unless someone needs more info.

Things I've tried:

Dirac Live with Bass Control:
This didn't really change my bass at all at first. Since then I've tweaked the curve, though honestly I'm not sure what I'm doing there so I used a Harman curve I found online. This curve can be used for +4DB up to +10DB for more bass output, this did help add some bass. I found the plus 10 is fatiguing on the ears, though honestly I don't really feel more bass, but yet my ears do get fatigued on +10db curve, I thought this was a bit odd. I try to keep my volume around -30 to -25 DB. The problem I have here is sometimes dialog can be hard to understand at those levels depending on the media being watched. So then I end up at -20db SOMETIMES even down to -18db. Maybe caused by being too close to my speakers?

Different sub pos:
I've tried separating the subs when I first got them, it's been a while, but this didn't really help at least at the time. Like I said to have both subs together the only place would be where they are now or right behind my sofa.

I've thought about trying to get them in the front corners of the room, the problem with that is my front left and right speaker would have to be moved way to close to the center OR they'd have to be right in front of the sub, which may put them too close to my MLP.


I've attached some screen shots of Dirac live readings and named them accordingly. I didn't mess with the cross over or any other setting other than the Harman curve.


Thanks for taking the time to read all that!

That is not the worst room ever by a long shot. Did you listen to the room before you added treatments? I have feeling you have "killed" the room with your wall treatments. Take the lot down, and see what the room sounds like. More than likely it will sound better. I have never hung any of that daft clutter on any of the walls of my rooms ever. I think most of the rationale for their use is just arrant nonsense.

You FR curves look about right. So I strongly suspect gratuitous room treatment as the cause of your problem.

 

[everettT]

That is not the wurst room ever by a long shot. Did you listen to the room before you added treatments? I have feeling you have "killed" the room with your wall treatments. Take the lot down, and see what the room sounds like. More than likely it will sound better. I have never hung any of that daft clutter on any of the walls of my rooms ever. I think most of the rationale for their use is just arrant nonsense.

You FR curves look about right. So I strongly suspect gratuitous room treatment as the cause of your problem.

That's Toole's approach to most non dedicated listening rooms... I was always impressed by his living room setup, the right speakers with well placed subs.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi all, I finally made time to make this post, hopefully someone can help me figure this out and we can all learn something new in the process! I'm having issues getting my bass right in this small room. I've attached a old mockup I made when trying to figure out the layout, please disregard the placements of everything, I did not end up laying it out this way, I can't find my other mockups, so please refer to this attachment for room size only not layout of speakers and sofa.

I have two Rythmik F18s one between my front left and center and the other between my front right and center. I have a feeling this may be part of my problem, but with such a small room, there's not a lot of options for sub placement. IMO the only other place I could put them would be directly behind my sitting position, to test this, I'd need to get a longer cable, so only want to go that route if going near field subs would be a possible fix.

My front speakers are all SVS ultras "bookshelf" speakers and my surrounds are NHTs. I also have Atmos in ceiling speakers from Klipsch. It's a LOT for such a small room, maybe too much, but no going back now.

My issue is I know these F18s should pack a punch! I watched/read so many reviews before purchasing them. However, I've really struggled getting them to do this. This is probably an issues with my room. Oh I almost forgot, I did sound treat this room, with GIK panels, I have a couple different panels from them, won't go into that unless someone needs more info.

Things I've tried:

Dirac Live with Bass Control:
This didn't really change my bass at all at first. Since then I've tweaked the curve, though honestly I'm not sure what I'm doing there so I used a Harman curve I found online. This curve can be used for +4DB up to +10DB for more bass output, this did help add some bass. I found the plus 10 is fatiguing on the ears, though honestly I don't really feel more bass, but yet my ears do get fatigued on +10db curve, I thought this was a bit odd. I try to keep my volume around -30 to -25 DB. The problem I have here is sometimes dialog can be hard to understand at those levels depending on the media being watched. So then I end up at -20db SOMETIMES even down to -18db. Maybe caused by being too close to my speakers?

Different sub pos:
I've tried separating the subs when I first got them, it's been a while, but this didn't really help at least at the time. Like I said to have both subs together the only place would be where they are now or right behind my sofa.

I've thought about trying to get them in the front corners of the room, the problem with that is my front left and right speaker would have to be moved way to close to the center OR they'd have to be right in front of the sub, which may put them too close to my MLP.


I've attached some screen shots of Dirac live readings and named them accordingly. I didn't mess with the cross over or any other setting other than the Harman curve.


Thanks for taking the time to read all that!

The other issue is that you have used bookshelf speakers. The problem with that is, that most of what we perceive as bass is actually above sub range. Subs are way overrated. A system should sound good and well balanced without subs. If it does not you won't cure it, however many subs you add. The reason is the power curve of music were the max power is between 100 Hz and 3KHz. There is tremendous power required in the 400 Hz to 2.5 KHz range. Three ways in particular as a group are deficient in power handing in the midrange. It takes two and not one cone midrange to handle the power. For one midrange you need a costly 4.5" dome mid range, and these are far and few between

So it is better and more cost effective to use two way speakers with bass/mids.

I honestly don't think I have ever heard a bookshelf speaker I could live with long term. There is a reason the bass strings, bass drums, and organ pipes are the size they are, and the size of a piano sound board come to that.

There is a reason why speakers need to be large, or at least larger than bookshelves.

I have looked at Amir's measurements of that speaker. They have a nasty false bass with a peak at 150 Hz, and then the bass drops off like falling brick.

Since you subs are in front, I would try setting the crossover between subs and speakers at 150 Hz. That might do the trick for you. I can't stress enough that what we perceive as bass extends way above the usual sub range of 80 Hz. You can easily have bags of bass below 80 Hz, and the system still sound bass deficient.

 

[lovinthehd]

At a guess I'd blame your expectations more than the gear. What do you expect those subs to do particularly in terms of "punch" and how do you define that?

 

[TLS Guy]

At a guess I'd blame your expectations more than the gear. What do you expect those subs to do particularly in terms of "punch" and how do you define that?

That really is the crux of it, as there is no punch in the range subs usually operate. The punch comes from far above sub range. Punch is in the snap of a drum and not the boom.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

IMO the subs don’t sound right because above 40 Hz, response is 5-10 dB down. So you have a big hole between 40 Hz and where the main speakers roll in.

Most standard room treatments (i.e. hung on walls) are not going to affect the sub region.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[TLS Guy]

IMO the subs don’t sound right because above 40 Hz, response is 5-10 dB down. So you have a big hole between 40 Hz and where the main speakers roll in.

Most standard room treatments (i.e. hung on walls) are not going to affect the sub region.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

That is the problem, people think that a sub obviates the need for capable main speakers, and bookshelves do not meet that requirement as a rule.

 

[Kingnoob]

That is the problem, people think that a sub obviates the need for capable main speakers, and bookshelves do not meet that requirement as a rule.

Supposedly they go down to around 50hz, If x over is 80 Hz? Op never mentioned what is was does lack of towers explain the lost bass ? Or did Dirac mess something up? It’s definitely not cheap room correction..

• Frequency Response: 45 Hz - 32 kHz (±3dB).

Hi all, I finally made time to make this post, hopefully someone can help me figure this out and we can all learn something new in the process! I'm having issues getting my bass right in this small room. I've attached a old mockup I made when trying to figure out the layout, please disregard the placements of everything, I did not end up laying it out this way, I can't find my other mockups, so please refer to this attachment for room size only not layout of speakers and sofa.

I have two Rythmik F18s one between my front left and center and the other between my front right and center. I have a feeling this may be part of my problem, but with such a small room, there's not a lot of options for sub placement. IMO the only other place I could put them would be directly behind my sitting position, to test this, I'd need to get a longer cable, so only want to go that route if going near field subs would be a possible fix.

My front speakers are all SVS ultras "bookshelf" speakers and my surrounds are NHTs. I also have Atmos in ceiling speakers from Klipsch. It's a LOT for such a small room, maybe too much, but no going back now.

My issue is I know these F18s should pack a punch! I watched/read so many reviews before purchasing them. However, I've really struggled getting them to do this. This is probably an issues with my room. Oh I almost forgot, I did sound treat this room, with GIK panels, I have a couple different panels from them, won't go into that unless someone needs more info.

Things I've tried:

Dirac Live with Bass Control:
This didn't really change my bass at all at first. Since then I've tweaked the curve, though honestly I'm not sure what I'm doing there so I used a Harman curve I found online. This curve can be used for +4DB up to +10DB for more bass output, this did help add some bass. I found the plus 10 is fatiguing on the ears, though honestly I don't really feel more bass, but yet my ears do get fatigued on +10db curve, I thought this was a bit odd. I try to keep my volume around -30 to -25 DB. The problem I have here is sometimes dialog can be hard to understand at those levels depending on the media being watched. So then I end up at -20db SOMETIMES even down to -18db. Maybe caused by being too close to my speakers?

Different sub pos:
I've tried separating the subs when I first got them, it's been a while, but this didn't really help at least at the time. Like I said to have both subs together the only place would be where they are now or right behind my sofa.

I've thought about trying to get them in the front corners of the room, the problem with that is my front left and right speaker would have to be moved way to close to the center OR they'd have to be right in front of the sub, which may put them too close to my MLP.


I've attached some screen shots of Dirac live readings and named them accordingly. I didn't mess with the cross over or any other setting other than the Harman curve.


Thanks for taking the time to read all that!

what are room dimensions? Is it open ?