Seeking advice/opinions etc. on side surround speakers...

[Happy Joe]

I use my living room as my home theater and listening room.Its your basic 17 foot x 12 ' 4" x 8' box.
having the main listening position against the end wall in the long direction and social seating against the other walls.
The corners are occupied by speaker towers. Polk R-700s at the front and NHT 2.5 I speakers in the rear

I'm looking for thin-ish wall mount-able side surround speaker options, at, hopefully, a moderate budget.
So far the cheapest option that I have come up with are a pair of, stacked, 6 1/16 inch deep, Polk es-35 center channel speakers

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-d3bQ9ofR8wi/p_107ES35WN/Polk-Audio-Signature-Elite-ES35-Walnut.html?tp=189

mounted to each of the long walls (above a small table on one side and above a loveseat on the other). I realize small speakers are not great at sound reproduction; but I'm willing to take the hit to get side surround sound effects. ( ... and I have several of these that are seeking usefulness).
Note; I am not willing to do "in the wall" speakers.

...Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome...

Enjoy!

 

[j_garcia]

Well, it says they go to 68Hz and you HAVE them, so I don't see why not. Not ideal obviously, but no reason why they wouldn't work.

 

[Happy Joe]

Thanks, for the response.

Note: I do intend to add at least one high quality subwoofer; in the future and all of the on the wall speakers (KEF, Martin logan, Focal) that I have been looking at on line seem to need/recommend subwoofer support.

I have mocked up the 2 speaker stack on one wall (sitting on the back of the loveseat) and it seems to give a fuller/richer sound than just one of the es-35s. I haven't noticed any significant boomy-ness yet... the 2 speaker stack should give roughly a 3 db level increase.

Enjoy!

 

[lovinthehd]

You're planning on doubling up these speakers on the same amp channels?

 

[Happy Joe]

Yes; in series for approximately a 16 ohm load (unless a better choice comes along)... quality amps should allow this.
I hesitate to put them in parallel (giving a possible load of less than 4 ohms at some frequencies) as the power supply in the Denon X3800h seems a bit on the anemic side... Though admittedly it has a lot to power with most outputs driven.
It's why I put an higher power amp on the front L & R; to drive the power hungry R700s.

In recent years, after the brand left Japan, some Denon products seem to have become, slightly, pale imitations of what they once were, IMO. Now it looks like Marantz is staging a bit of a comeback.

(I took about a 20 year time out from home audio to concentrate on building Difficult Terrain 4WDs (four wheel drive vehicles))...And Camping in hard to access places.


Enjoy!

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes; in series for approximately a 16 ohm load (unless a better choice comes along)... quality amps should allow this.
I hesitate to put them in parallel (giving a possible load of less than 4 ohms at some frequencies) as the power supply in the Denon X3800h seems a bit on the anemic side... Though admittedly it has a lot to power with most outputs driven.
It's why I put an higher power amp on the front L & R; to drive the power hungry R700s.

In recent years, after the brand left Japan, some Denon products seem to have become, slightly, pale imitations of what they once were, IMO. Now it looks like Marantz is staging a bit of a comeback.

(I took about a 20 year time out from home audio to concentrate on building Difficult Terrain 4WDs (four wheel drive vehicles))...And Camping in hard to access places.
View attachment 73901

Enjoy!

You never wire complete speakers with crossovers in parallel. You can wire individual drivers. Two per side will be way worse than one. You should mount those speakers vertically and NOT horizontally. Even if you did that you would gain zero output as the loss of output going to 16 ohm will cancel the increase in output of having two. Going to 16 ohm would loose you 3db. Using two speakers gains you 3db. So no upsides, only downsides.

 

[Happy Joe]

... Thanx!
Vertical mounting doesn't fit well, although I prefer it due to the, potential interference patterns (in combination with head movement; sometimes results in dead spots during movement).


Enjoy!

 

[TLS Guy]

... Thanx!
Vertical mounting doesn't fit well, although I prefer it due to the, potential interference patterns (in combination with head movement; sometimes results in dead spots during movement).


Enjoy!

Yes, vertical mounting is much preferred. As you probably know, a center is not the preferred speaker for this application. So, a lot depends on what your expectations are.

 

[Wardog555]

Kef q4meta and arendal 1961 will be significantly better.

Sounds like you need to be away from walls to solve your problems.

 

[Trell]

Your room has about the same dimensions is my own and it's a challenge to get good audio, sadly.

I've a thread with pictures, at then end of the thread, from my living room in a 5.1 setup (two subwoofers, actually) and an import change was to quite simply replacing my centre speaker with a book shelf speaker as that gave better audio clarity sitting on the side.

Trell's home theatre/living room

Do you notice any difference in dynamics- i.e., one woofer vs two? Not yet, though the listening volume played so far is moderate, about -30 dB to -25 dB on the receiver. And, of course, it depends on the content :)

forums.audioholics.com

 

[Happy Joe]

Yes; I realize that these centers are more a compromise than a good solution;
However I need to work within the existing room (don' have the motivation/desire to build a dedicated home theater room (it would end up being a near duplicate of my living room anyway).
Basically I am getting antique enough that my hearing and eyesight are going down hill; and my mad money budget is mostly used up for this year anyway.

Depending on my dissatisfaction level I may look, at better side speakers some more (shopping costs nothing and is, some times, educational)...
Once I receive the 4th es35 (scheduled for the 3rd) I will determine the final mounting and start looking at more civilized subwoofers.
I feel that the low end is the biggest shortcoming of the current setup. I need to get rid of the old 16 cubic foot (YES: refrigerator sized) (see some late 1970's audio magazines - (edit) finally found it; switched on bass ) 15"sub (cut it up and haul it off). My 2 old small powered subs are likely unusable/un-salvageabl;, given the state of other speakers that have decayed in storage, but I will check.

My expectations; moderately good (I won't be able to hear great (sadly)) sound; to experience in my dotage...

Enjoy!

 

[Happy Joe]

Your room has about the same dimensions is my own and it's a challenge to get good audio, sadly.

I've a thread with pictures, at then end of the thread, from my living room in a 5.1 setup (two subwoofers, actually) and an import change was to quite simply replacing my centre speaker with a book shelf speaker as that gave better audio clarity sitting on the side.

Trell's home theatre/living room

Do you notice any difference in dynamics- i.e., one woofer vs two? Not yet, though the listening volume played so far is moderate, about -30 dB to -25 dB on the receiver. And, of course, it depends on the content :)

forums.audioholics.com

Yes; I have been reading your build (thank you for your efforts); and have tried (my last working EPI 100; Yes... I am getting up there age wise... (F-ing OLD)) as a center speaker (laying on its side).
I splurged recently and got an SVS center speaker which, unsurprisingly, works pretty well (better than I expected)....
I like their diamond coated tweeter (and its sound)... especially... but miss the low end that EPI's used to be famous for... I am actually considering having Hugh at Human Speakers make me up some replacement woofers and tweeters for the old boxes... (if they were thinner, they would become my side speakers in 2 vertically stacked 2 speakers, one inverted, twisted arrays)...
https://www.humanspeakers.com/e/epi100.htm

Enjoy!

 

[Wardog555]

Avoid all speakers with undersized 5 inch woofers.
You want good sound? My suggestions above will be significantly better than the 35 model speakers from polk. I mean all of them.

 

[lovinthehd]

What are your plans for mounting/placing whatever speakers you decide on?

 

[Happy Joe]

Avoid all speakers with undersized 5 inch woofers.
You want good sound? My suggestions above will be significantly better than the 35 model speakers from polk. I mean all of them.

While large woofers are a good place to begin (I don't even care for 6.5 inch mid-ranges, that much, (although they are currently very popular), larger mid-ranges tend to sound more mellow though care needs to be used to avoid sacrificing the higher mid-range response). I am glad to see co-axial speakers once again gaining some popularity.

The side channels seem to reproduce mostly mid-range (which small speakers can do pretty easily), and I have other drivers to produce lower sounds (though not a sub: ... yet)...

Additionally, experience with speaker arrays seems to show that speakers closer than about1/2 wavelength to each other can couple acoustically. and sound like a larger driver is a part of the whole... (I have mocked up the 2 speaker stack and it, indeed, has a fuller more rounded sound than the size of the drivers alone would indicate...

By taking the whole system into account rather than focusing on one part I expect to have, somewhat, acceptable sound (not forgetting that I am an old fart that is gradually going deaf)... and I can always change my mind later; all it costs is some time, money and a little effort.

Some lessons can be learned over more than 60 years of experience in home audio... ('though not all are good!).

Enjoy!

 

[Happy Joe]

What are your plans for mounting/placing whatever speakers you decide on?

I am limited in placement by speaker size and the fact that I want to keep the living room as an, occasional, social center.
...so I expect to replace the loveseat that currently sits along one of the long walls with two swivel rocker recliners with a small table between them; facilitating conversation and allowing more comfortable movie viewing (at that point I may be able to set up vertical array speakers (similar to the Focal 302s) as side speakers (R); timing depends on sales opportunity and budget (this year has been expensive RE; the mad money budget so far)...
The Polk r700s will likely stay on either side of the flat screen on the front short wall.

And the SVS center will likely stay on the floor in the center (its kind of in the way, but there is not much else to do with it right now).
The NHT 2.5 I's will likely stay near the corners of the other/rear, short wall (though they may get dome or flat mid-ranges (I'm not liking the level limits placed on me by the current cone mid-ranges).
Currently on the rear wall there is a 2 position theater seat/recliner couch, with an end table on the left and a door way on the right.

I will likely drop some smaller subs in one or two corners... (I have had enough of patching dry wall cracks generated by low frequencies; so, no super subs...).
...and replace a current recliner that is on one side of a small, central, lamp table on the long wall opposite the loveseat, with a swivel rocker recliner that can be more easily moved to a more central/optimal viewing/listening position when the room is not fully occupied (for serious listening/viewing).
On the other side of the small table there is an antique rocking chair that needs replacement with another swivel rocker recliner. The existing small lamp table will need something done with it to enable the installation of the second vertical array (L) side speaker.
As always furniture positioning/repositioning may require some minor speaker moving/optimizing...

At this time I am done putting up sound absorbing panels (currently at 2, required by the Polk r700s; they seem to inspire reflections). (The room is, otherwise pretty neutral, reflection wise).

Enjoy!

 

[lovinthehd]

I am limited in placement by speaker size and the fact that I want to keep the living room as an, occasional, social center.
...so I expect to replace the loveseat that currently sits along one of the long walls with two swivel rocker recliners with a small table between them; facilitating conversation and allowing more comfortable movie viewing (at that point I may be able to set up vertical array speakers (similar to the Focal 302s) as side speakers (R); timing depends on sales opportunity and budget (this year has been expensive RE; the mad money budget so far)...
The Polk r700s will likely stay on either side of the flat screen on the front short wall.

And the SVS center will likely stay on the floor in the center (its kind of in the way, but there is not much else to do with it right now).
The NHT 2.5 I's will likely stay near the corners of the other/rear, short wall (though they may get dome or flat mid-ranges (I'm not liking the level limits placed on me by the current cone mid-ranges).
Currently on the rear wall there is a 2 position theater seat/recliner couch, with an end table on the left and a door way on the right.

I will likely drop some smaller subs in one or two corners... (I have had enough of patching dry wall cracks generated by low frequencies; so, no super subs...).
...and replace a current recliner that is on one side of a small, central, lamp table on the long wall opposite the loveseat, with a swivel rocker recliner that can be more easily moved to a more central/optimal viewing/listening position when the room is not fully occupied (for serious listening/viewing).
On the other side of the small table there is an antique rocking chair that needs replacement with another swivel rocker recliner. The existing small lamp table will need something done with it to enable the installation of the second vertical array (L) side speaker.
As always furniture positioning/repositioning may require some minor speaker moving/optimizing...

At this time I am done putting up sound absorbing panels (currently at 2, required by the Polk r700s; they seem to inspire reflections). (The room is, otherwise pretty neutral, reflection wise).

Enjoy!

Thanks, but was more interested in the physical positioning/mounting of the surrounds particularly.....what kind of mount and where on the wall?

 

[Happy Joe]

Thanks, but was more interested in the physical positioning/mounting of the surrounds particularly.....what kind of mount and where on the wall?

Right now I am considering cantilevered (floating) shelves; wood, glass, stone or 3/4 inch PVC; with PVC, so far in the lead since it is relatively dead and thus less susceptible to sympathetic vibration. I fully expect to do a quick-survey of the available online shelves before making my own. The shelves will need to be able to conservatively support at least 80 pounds.

At best this question is a bit premature as I do not expect this to be a particularly successful experiment.
I expect to, initially, put a set of speakers on the existing lamp table Midway between the front and rear speakers , along the (Left) long wall and on the other side of the room to place them on the back of the loveseat (Right) .
If I like what I hear; I will likely make up some shelves that appear to float in space and attach them to the wall with some (3/8 or 1/2 inch diameter) steel pins (running deep into the studs).

Everyone needs to bear in mind that all of these plans are, at best, preliminary.

PUBLIC SERVICE Announcement:
These speakers should be considered, IMO, MID-RANGE speakers only and, IMO, are produced to attempt to make flat screen televisions sound LESS BAD.

IMO: they have little to no chance of producing anything close to audiophile quality sound They produce little to no bass (in spite of user ratings and advertising).
The primary purpose of this experiment is to determine what kind of and how much sound is produced by the surround outputs (L and R). And I fully expect to replace these speakers, with something better, over the next year.

PLEASE, folks refrain from purchasing these over priced speakers; the three that I have were obtained mostly by others... And at $400 each much better bookshelf speakers are, probably, available.

Enjoy!

 

[Wardog555]

I tried svs satellite speakers for example and found them lacking in sound quality. There's a reason I went with polk r200 bookshelf speakers and it was the sound quality alone that made me choose it.
I'm not saying to have 6 inch or more size drivers. What I'm saying is a minimum of 5 inches that deliver the sound quality that people demand.
The only reason people want undersized speakers is based on serious personal issues that prevent them from accepting normal sized speakers and or refusal to make the changes needed to have them. You could say they are both together as one as it often is.

The point is focusing on good sound rather than inadequate sound and or allowing personal issues interfer with the placements and or quality of the speaker.

I wish people just get the message but we all know people don't care enough for good which is what I will fight for always.

 

[isolar8001]

I tried svs satellite speakers for example and found them lacking in sound quality. There's a reason I went with polk r200 bookshelf speakers and it was the sound quality alone that made me choose it.
I'm not saying to have 6 inch or more size drivers. What I'm saying is a minimum of 5 inches that deliver the sound quality that people demand.
The only reason people want undersized speakers is based on serious personal issues that prevent them from accepting normal sized speakers and or refusal to make the changes needed to have them. You could say they are both together as one as it often is.

The point is focusing on good sound rather than inadequate sound and or allowing personal issues interfer with the placements and or quality of the speaker.

I wish people just get the message but we all know people don't care enough for good which is what I will fight for always.

You seem to be just as clueless here as you are on AVS.