Playing Mono LP's

[Squishman]

Most recordings into the late 60's, mono was the preferred format. Very little attention was given to stereo mixes (until for the Beatles, the White Album) and you could tell with the usually terrible mixes. Parlogram Auctions on Youtube talks a lot about Beatles LP's and he recommends getting two "Y" RCA cables plugged together if you do not have a cart for mono records. I don't see the point. I have a nice mono Beatles collection (and others like The Yardbirds, Otis Redding, etc.) and I don't bother with settings. I just play a mono record with my AVR in stereo mode. I suppose if I had a vintage receiver with a mono switch, I'd hit that. Otherwise nope. Comments?

 

[Squishman]

My AVR does have a mono movie mode, where you can get mono sound in just your center speaker, but I don't use that. I have though in the past, just to try it and it is interesting as a throw-back. Like this is what a listener experienced way back when. But I prefer to keep the AVR in stereo mode.

 

[TLS Guy]

My AVR does have a mono movie mode, where you can get mono sound in just your center speaker, but I don't use that. I have though in the past, just to try it and it is interesting as a throw-back. Like this is what a listener experienced way back when. But I prefer to keep the AVR in stereo mode.

I play mono records just through the center speaker and sub channels. I showed you that before. Playing mono records in two channel stereo mode is definitely second best.

 

[Squishman]

I play mono records just through the center speaker and sub channels. I showed you that before. Playing mono records in two channel stereo mode is definitely second best.

Right. We played my Mono "Tears of a Clown" by Smokey Robinson and the Miracles. It sounded great in your center speaker. I wouldn't mind hearing it again through your huge mains maybe next time. It's my favorite Motown song.

 

[Trebdp83]

My AVR does have a mono movie mode, where you can get mono sound in just your center speaker, but I don't use that. I have though in the past, just to try it and it is interesting as a throw-back. Like this is what a listener experienced way back when. But I prefer to keep the AVR in stereo mode.

The RZ50 has Mono and Mono Music sound modes. Mono is selected with the Movie button on the remote controller and Mono Music is selected with the Music button on the remote controller.

Mono sound mode will output Analog/PCM signals to the Center Channel by default and Mono Music sound mode will output audio to all speakers in Mono.

The Mono sound mode can be set to output audio to the Front Left and Right speakers rather than the Center Channel speaker when selecting it for playback. The setting to change it can be found in the Setup menu under “3. Audio Adjust.” Change the Mono Output Speaker from Center to Left/Right.

 

[Squishman]

The RZ50 has Mono and Mono Music sound modes. Mono is selected with the Movie button on the remote controller and Mono Music is selected with the Music button on the remote controller.

Mono sound mode will output Analog/PCM signals to the Center Channel by default and Mono Music sound mode will output audio to all speakers in Mono.

The Mono sound mode can be set to output audio to the Front Left and Right speakers rather than the Center Channel speaker when selecting it for playback. The setting to change it can be found in the Setup menu under “3. Audio Adjust.” Change the Mono Output Speaker from Center to Left/Right.

Oh ok. Interesting. But I don't want all speakers playing for music unless it is the soundtrack of something on TV or a movie of course.
But what is the point of selecting mono for L/R playback? Can you not just leave well enough alone for the same effect?
And what about Andrew at Parlogram's cable suggestion? Seems like a moot idea/connection to me. I mean, a mono LP will hardly playback in anything but mono.

 

[Trebdp83]

If you do not want Mono albums output from all speakers, simply do not select Mono Music sound mode. If you want Mono signals output from the Fronts rather than the Center when selecting Mono sound mode, simply make the settings change for Mono sound mode.

 

[Squishman]

Ok, but why not do nothing and just play the mono LP in stereo and bob's your uncle?

 

[lovinthehd]

Who is the Bob guy?

 

[Squishman]

Who is the Bob guy?

Bob's your uncle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok, but why not do nothing and just play the mono LP in stereo and bob's your uncle?

Unfortunately for you Todd, in this case your uncle is not Bob but Tom!

To explain why I will have to put on my old UND associate professors hat.

The basis of the problem lies in the fact that speed is a scalar number but velocity is a vector. So speed has no phase, but velocity does.
Let me try and explain the significance of that.

Let us take an imaginary old disused aerodrome with two mile and a half runways intersecting at 45 degrees at the midpoint. One going East/West and the other north east/south west

Now take you car at the aerodrome and travel a mile east at 90 mph. Now turn round and go back at the other direction west at 90 mph. Making the time for the journeys the same. Now cross the midpoint and continue west at 90 mph for another mile.

Now, your speed will be 90 mph for the whole trip. At the easternmost point your speed and velocity are 90 mph, but your velocity average for the trip as you pass the midpoint heading west will be 0 mph, and your velocity at the mile west point is -180 mph.

Now lets have you travel northwest a mile at 90 mph. Now if you draw a line down from the half mile point to the line going west it will intersect at the midpoint. You speed is still 90 mph, but you velocity relative the the midpoint of the west heading is 45mph.

So the point is that speed is a scalar number, but velocity is a vector having both magnitude AND direction.

So when you go back crossing the midpoint there is an antiphase condition.

This does apply to playing your mono record.

Now, a mono record is just a laterally modulated groove. In other word the stylus is going up and down that east.west runway.

No let us put another runway at crossing the midpoint going Northeast/Southwest. That is the exact condition of a stereo groove cut. The coils are position in just the way to detect northwest/southeast stylus movement and northeast/southwest movement of the stylus in this example.

That is how you get the left and right channels. It is only possible because velocity is a vector and the cartridge reacts to the velocity of the stylus and NOT the speed.

So I think it is now possible to see why playing a mono record in stereo is way suboptimal and why your uncle is not Bob.

If you couple the channels and make it mono then any extraneous up and down movement of the stylus, in other words deflections that are not strictly lateral will be cancelled totally by being antiphase.

So when playing mono records always engage the mono button and couple the channels. It is also best the play from single speaker, like I demonstrated to you if possible. That really depends on the competence of the center channel and a lot of those are "week brethren" to say the least. So coupling the two channels and playing from one or two speakers could be the best option.

 

[Squishman]

Unfortunately for you Todd, in this case your uncle is not Bob but Tom!

To explain why I will have to put on my old UND associate professors hat.

The basis of the problem lies in the fact that speed is a scalar number but velocity is a vector. So speed has no phase, but velocity does.
Let me try and explain the significance of that.

Let us take an imaginary old disused aerodrome with two mile and a half runways intersecting at 45 degrees at the midpoint. One going East/West and the other north east/south west

Now take you car at the aerodrome and travel a mile east at 90 mph. Now turn round and go back at the other direction west at 90 mph. Making the time for the journeys the same. Now cross the midpoint and continue west at 90 mph for another mile.

Now, your speed will be 90 mph for the whole trip. At the easternmost point your speed and velocity are 90 mph, but your velocity average for the trip as you pass the midpoint heading west will be 0 mph, and your velocity at the mile west point is -180 mph.

Now lets have you travel northwest a mile at 90 mph. Now if you draw a line down from the half mile point to the line going west it will intersect at the midpoint. You speed is still 90 mph, but you velocity relative the the midpoint of the west heading is 45mph.

So the point is that speed is a scalar number, but velocity is a vector having both magnitude AND direction.

So when you go back crossing the midpoint there is an antiphase condition.

This does apply to playing your mono record.

Now, a mono record is just a laterally modulated groove. In other word the stylus is going up and down that east.west runway.

No let us put another runway at crossing the midpoint going Northeast/Southwest. That is the exact condition of a stereo groove cut. The coils are position in just the way to detect northwest/southeast stylus movement and northeast/southwest movement of the stylus in this example.

That is how you get the left and right channels. It is only possible because velocity is a vector and the cartridge reacts to the velocity of the stylus and NOT the speed.

So I think it is now possible to see why playing a mono record in stereo is way suboptimal and why your uncle is not Bob.

If you couple the channels and make it mono then any extraneous up and down movement of the stylus, in other words deflections that are not strictly lateral will be cancelled totally by being antiphase.

So when playing mono records always engage the mono button and couple the channels. It is also best the play from single speaker, like I demonstrated to you if possible. That really depends on the competence of the center channel and a lot of those are "week brethren" to say the least. So coupling the two channels and playing from one or two speakers could be the best option.

Thanks for that explanation. It makes sense, But I will have to read it a couple times! I will have to see if I can tolerate all speakers active with the mono music setting, or single speaker with "mono movie" mode. It'll be one of those two then. I wish I had a simple mono switch so I could have both L/R active.

 

[Squishman]

@Trebdp83 , is that "mono movie" function colored somehow for optimal movie sound rather than music? There is no doubt that mono music in all channels sounds better. Playing the Beatle's White Album in mono from the 2014 Mono Box Set and the swirling piano on "Dear Prudence" sounds amazing on all channels but it doesn't cut so much on just the center.
edit: putting my ear close to the center, flipping back and forth, it does sound similar, if not the same in that speaker. Maybe it just sounds more clear since you get 7 speakers going, so more volume. That's probably it.

 

[Mikado463]

Most recordings into the late 60's, mono was the preferred format. Very little attention was given to stereo mixes

Not all , here's but one..........Herb Alpert 'Whipped Cream & Other Delights' , 1965

 

[Squishman]

Not all , here's but one..........Herb Alpert 'Whipped Cream & Other Delights' , 1965

I have that. In Stereo. I see on Discogs, it was in stereo and mono. So the stereo was the primary mix on that one?

 

[Mikado463]

I have that. In Stereo. I see on Discogs, it was in stereo and mono. So the stereo was the primary mix on that one?

Well, considering I was only 12 when it came out all I know is my Dads copy was Stereo. Played on his 1963 Stromberg Carlson Stereo console. Fond memories of laying on the floor listening to the music 'travel' between the left and right channels !

 

[Squishman]

Well, considering I was only 12 when it came out all I know is my Dads copy was Stereo. Played on his 1963 Stromberg Carlson Stereo console. Fond memories of laying on the floor listening to the music 'travel' between the left and right channels !

Oh ok. I misunderstood. I thought you had some specific insight on that.

 

[TLS Guy]

Oh ok. I misunderstood. I thought you had some specific insight on that.

The first stereo records appeared in 1958, and really proliferated after 1959. However two mixes were done, and records issued in mono and stereo versions. So, when in the record store you had to make sure you bought the right version. The reason for this is that there were a lot of mono players about and mono cartridges had no vertical compliance. So if you played a stereo record on a mono player it ruined the disc in a hurry. Most of these were high output crystal or ceramic cartridges, as these were high output and needed no RIAA eq, and were fitted to most cheap players. Usually these were a turnover type that would play 78s and LPs. Some time in the sixties John Walton of Decca introduced his M2 mono crystal cartridge that had vertical compliance and could easily be fitted to cheap players.
During the period 1967 to 1968 all record companies phased out mono records, with Decca leading the way on that.

 

[Squishman]

I remember the flip needles in the mid-60's. And also 78 rpm speed on my Dad's phono console unit.
Dusty Springfield's fabulous "Dusty in Memphis" record was only issued in stereo in 1969, recorded in '68. And it's too bad because the stereo mix is not so great. At least that was my opinion years ago. I need to re-check that. Years ago, I mixed down both channels and made my own mono recording of it on my computer. I still have that and I should play it again to see how I like it over the stereo half-speed master LP I got a few years ago. You can read here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dusty_in_Memphis
how she suggested to the heads of Atlantic Records that they sign Led Zeppelin. And they did, based on her recommendation.
If you scroll to the last paragraph, you can read that in 1993, NME named it the 54th greatest album ever recorded.
I understand the original master tapes are gone, burned in a warehouse fire, so there will never be another mix.

 

[lovinthehd]

Bob's your uncle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

LOL was being facetious....I have no uncles let alone one named bob or the english colloquialism for such. Brian Wilson was deaf in one ear from his father's beatings, so he mixed in mono....