Concerns for the Future of Sound United and Update on my Marantz 7706.

[TLS Guy]

Maybe @M Code has some insight.

I hope he might have good news. However, from what I have read it looks pessimistic. I would not like them to disappear, which they won't entirely. However that will be the worst outcome as you will see the brand names sold, so that they would become junk brands.

 

[Trell]

My 2015 model Denon AVR-X4200W is in daily use with 4 Ohm speakers in a 5.1 setup (two subwoofers) and is till working.

 

[Trell]

A purchase of a billion compared to a relatively small shortfall means just write it off and shut it down because someone doesn't step up immediately? Eh?

I don't think so either, but can I replace my old AVR if it breaks down.

Edit: Grammar

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I hope he might have good news.

I just don’t see Denon AVR going extinct. Maybe expensive AVP and expensive powered speakers will go extinct because most people can’t afford them. But I just can’t see $600-$1200 Denon AVR going extinct.

Again, Sound United will likely do exactly what Yamaha has been doing the past 5 years - don’t make any more new AVPs and newer model AVR - weather the economic storm. Sony has done this also. Just continue AVR in the $500-$3000 range.

No more AVP’s and external amps.

SU has stopped producing the Polk Legacy speakers since about 2 years ago. So they will just continue to “downgrade” and weather the storm until someone buys.

 

[TLS Guy]

I just don’t see Denon AVR going extinct. Maybe expensive AVP and expensive powered speakers will go extinct because most people can’t afford them. But I just can’t see $600-$1200 Denon AVR going extinct.

Again, Sound United will likely do exactly what Yamaha has been doing the past 5 years - don’t make any more new AVPs and newer model AVR - weather the economic storm. Sony has done this also. Just continue AVR in the $500-$3000 range.

No more AVP’s and external amps.

That may all be true. But who will be the holding company? These outfits can't exist in isolation, and the board of Masimo are quite clear they want nothing more to do with them.

The bigger issue for all is this: - I talk to friends and acquaintances and there is an overriding issue. They don't want what is on offer. The fundamental problem is that the higher end of the industry has lost touch with domestic architecture and therefore a viable customer base. What is definitely required is far more two channel AV gear with a smaller footprint and much better aesthetics. There is an absolute dearth of good two channel gear at affordable prices. That is what is driving the death of the goose.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That may all be true. But who will be the holding company? These outfits can't exist in isolation, and the board of Masimo are quite clear they want nothing more to do with them.

The bigger issue for all is this: - I talk to friends and acquaintances and there is an overriding issue. They don't want what is on offer. The fundamental problem is that the higher end of the industry has lost touch with domestic architecture and therefore a viable customer base. What is definitely required is far more two channel AV gear with a smaller footprint and much better aesthetics. There is an absolute dearth of good two channel gear at affordable prices. That is what is driving the death of the goose.

You think the cause of the problem is the lack of 2CH systems and too many AVR?

Perhaps the lack of active systems like that $23K active speaker on the other thread?

The problem is the poor economy right now.

90% of the market is AVR, not 2CH and high-end AVP and amps. So financially it makes more sense to just stick to that 90% market and keep things more “simple”.

I think the awesome state of the art Marantz AV-10, AMP-10, and all their high-end products are the “problem” financially.

And B&W speakers that cost $50K is the problem.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If we’re making predictions now, here’s my prediction:

Until they sell, SU will cut production and follow Yamaha’s footsteps.

It makes a lot more sense than just giving up and die.

 

[TLS Guy]

If we’re making predictions now, here’s my prediction:

Until they sell, SU will cut production and follow Yamaha’s footsteps.

It makes a lot more sense than just giving up and die.

It is not just Denon and Marantz. They own far too many speaker companies. The whole outfit is a massive spiraling out of control mess.

These outfits are all selling to the same limited market. I know many think their only option is a sound bar. They know they are not much good and not really what they want.

There needs to be decent two and may be three channel systems out there priced within reach of the many.

These outfits are all competing for the same limited market. There is a huge market out there between multichannel systems and sound bars. This is the problem of the modern age, everyone goes bonkers at the same time and the same way, and that is not limited to audio and AV.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There is a huge market out there between multichannel systems and sound bars.

Huge market? If 90% of the market is AVR, how can there be a “HUGE” market for 2CH and 3CH components?

The other 10% that is not AVR includes 2CH and AVP/amp. And you somehow think that the majority of this 10% is for 2CH and 3CH systems?

 

[TLS Guy]

Huge market? If 90% of the market is AVR, how can there be a “HUGE” market for 2CH and 3CH components?

The other 10% that is not AVR includes 2CH and AVP/amp. And you somehow think that the majority of this 10% is for 2CH and 3CH systems?

What you don't understand is that it is "death loop." By that I mean they are only catering to a market they essentially created and in the scheme of things it is small. So your 10% is 10% of the existing market and NOT the potential market. The whole market has become geared way out of whack and a long way from practical reality.
Face it modern home architecture and interior design is in no way geared to multichannel audio. Two channel fits in far better with current aesthetic design and has done actually since the sixties and seventies. There has been obstinate avoidance of that reality.

 

[Trell]

What you don't understand is that it is "death loop." By that I mean they are only catering to a market they essentially created and in the scheme of things it is small. So your 10% is 10% of the existing market and NOT the potential market. The whole market has become geared way out of whack and a long way from practical reality.
Face it modern home architecture and interior design is in no way geared to multichannel audio. Two channel fits in far better with current aesthetic design and has done actually since the sixties and seventies. There has been obstinate avoidance of that reality.

The market has always been very small for anything more than stereo and perhaps a small "subwoofer".

 

[TLS Guy]

The market has always been very small for anything more than stereo and perhaps a small "subwoofer".

That is precisely my point. However that market has been wilfully neglected.

A good 2 channel system gives you at least 90% of the loaf. The industry has concentrated on that last 10%.

The other issue is that the AV multi channel AV market is now maturing as you would expect from the experience of other new technologies. This home AV market started and diverged from classic stereo audio in the dying years of the last century. So this technology is now approaching 30 years of age. This is widely recognized as the maturing period of new technologies and this is happening now.

Yes, Yamaha have spotted this and are not churning out new units, which is wise.

 

[TLS Guy]

We are getting close to the hour where Masimo have to "fish or cut bait".

I heard that the Denon website was down for a while. It is up now and somewhat of a shambles. They are discounting units, especially receivers on that site, and a significant number out of stock.

The Marantz site is in better shape and no discounting and not at online dealers either, but all reporting low stock on a lot of units.

I suspect that all or parts of Sound United will close shortly. It looks as if Denon is certainly for the chop to me.

It looks to me that Marantz may continue, but it looks as if it may be confined to the upper end of the market.

I have not looked at their speaker holdings.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I heard that the Denon website was down for a while. It is up now and somewhat of a shambles. They are discounting units, especially receivers on that site, and a significant number out of stock.

A1 $6500
A10 $4700
x8500 $4600
x6800 $3500
x4800 $2200
x3800 $1500

What "Discounts"? And which of these models are "Significantly" out of stock?

I am looking at their warehouse inventories, and every model seems to be well in stock at the moment.

You need to take a Xanax and chill out.

 

[TLS Guy]

A1 $6500
A10 $4700
x8500 $4600
x6800 $3500
x4800 $2200
x3800 $1500

What "Discounts"? And which of these models are "Significantly" out of stock?

I am looking at their warehouse inventories, and every model seems to be well in stock at the moment.

You need to take a Xanax and chill out.

Not on Amazon and some other sites.

They have sale prices on the Denon site.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Not on Amazon and some other sites.

They have sale prices on the Denon site.

The prices I posted are from the Denon USA website.

 

[lovinthehd]

Not on Amazon and some other sites.

They have sale prices on the Denon site.

Amazon, such a reliable source LOL

 

[dlaloum]

Certainly I would agree the election of that vile Trump bloke has made the shuttering of Sound United more likely especially as they will face Tariffs from overseas manufacture. There is no way they could pivot to US manufacture intime to prevent disaster. To me the outcome looks bleak, but I would be happy to be wrong about this.

That is a very US centric comment...

Let's keep in mind that Denon was a Japanese company, B&W British, Classe Canadian, sure Polk, Marantz and BA all originated in the USA, but demonstrably this is an international company with a suite of brands from all over the world, and substantive markets all over the world as well.

Sure the USA is a major consumer market... but it may well be that the Trump isolation of the USA, only affects US customers... and that may not be the majority.

The Trump generated recession is likely to affect the US market more than the protectionist barriers at the border..

I simply don't know what the financials for SU are like when divided up by region... it would be interesting to get such information.

 

[dlaloum]

Possibly Samsung? Harman?

I doubt it.... or at least not without firesale pricing...

Samsung owns Harman now.

And that conglomerate, already has AVR/AVP's at several price points, several speaker brands, etc...

When you look at market coverage, they have the slots that SU covers, already covered

 

[dlaloum]

FWIW Onkyo is operated by a joint venture between Sharp (25%) and Premium Audio Company (75%). PAC is a Voxx subsidiary. Not particularly encouraging in any case.

Voxx got sold to Gentex late last year... There has been no news about any strategy coming from Gentex after the purchase... so right now Ownership is Gentex -> Voxx -> PAC -> (various audio brands)

But again, keep in mind that the US market is only one part of their worldwide market... the PAC stable include Onkyo/Integra (Asian), Magnat (german), Mirage (canadian), etc...
So the diversity of their markets may protect the corporation/group from the excess protectionism of Trump.

But for sure, expect price of gear in the USA to rise in line with the protectionist policies.