Alien Enemies Act of 1798

mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Trum has invoked this ancient act against Venezuelan gang members (TdA)
Perhaps @Mr._Clark can explain this for us, application to present times and enforceability. Who else can he invoke this to?
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Trum has invoked this ancient act against Venezuelan gang members (TdA)
Perhaps @Mr._Clark can explain this for us, application to present times and enforceability. Who else can he invoke this to?
This is a rarely used law, so the usual disclaimers about it being outside my area of practice and so on apply double

The law is intended to apply to wars and invasions, but I suspect that most courts would largely defer to the President in terms of whether or not a particular set of facts constitutes an invasion (i.e. if congress has not declared war). The gist of it is that courts don't want to second guess a president on matters of national security and tend to say in so many words that "This is an issue involving national security and congress granted the President broad authority to take action, so we're not going to second guess the President, it's up to congress to revise the law if they don't want the President to take action in this situation."

On the other hand, courts are normally hesitant to allow a President to invoke national security and emergency powers as a pretext to make a power grab. The law concerning due process rights of noncitizens has evolved significantly over the years, and a court could hold that Trump's actions violated the due process rights of the prisoners in this case (this would be a way to sidestep second guessing the President on the issue of whether not the Act applies at all).

The final outcome is very unclear to me.

This is back in the news because the judge is holding hearings on whether or not the Trump admininistration violated the court order by not turning the planes around.


As a factual matter, it's not entirely clear based on the news reports if the planes landed before the order was issued. If the earlier reports are accurate and the Trump administratoin did ignore the court order, this would be the first example of this that I'm aware of.


The DOJ appears to asserting that the court lost jurisdiction once the planes were over international waters. My initial impression is that this is a weak argument, if in fact it is being asserted.

An undercurrent in many of these cases is that the executive branch (Trump) is asserting that the courts don't have jurisdiction (power) to control actions by the executive branch. Trump is basically asking the courts to declare themselves powerless. This is obviously not sitting well with many of the Article III federal judges, but I could imagine this Supreme Court castrating themselves in a harakiri-like display of loyalty to Trump.

But, back to the disclaimers, I'm not an expert in this area of the law and I have not researched the issues.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...

But, back to the disclaimers, I'm not an expert in this area of the law and I have not researched the issues.
Many thanks for the explanations. Keep them coming as your time permits.
And also, the latest on this from the Border Zar is he doesn't listen to judges, just orders from the President. WOW.
What's next?
Consequences will be meaningless.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Warlord
On CNN there was footage of Bannon saying along the lines of if there's one or two legal immigrants who get mixed in with illegals and are shipped away, oh well that's how it goes. I suspect he will mind if I accidentally shipped him out of the country. ;) Anyway, thankfully a Republican commentator denounced it.
 
D

dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
This is part of the ongoing coup / regime change...

They can define anyone for any reason as an enemy (or traitor) - only the Judicial Branch can potentially halt that - and they are in the process of testing the Judicial branch by simply ignoring it (eg: the recent deportations).

If they can render the Judicial irrelevant, and bribe/scare the legislature into compliance, then Trump will indeed be absolute Monarch.... The constitution will be a dead letter with no meaning, and Law will be defined by might makes right.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
This is part of the ongoing coup / regime change...

They can define anyone for any reason as an enemy (or traitor) - only the Judicial Branch can potentially halt that - and they are in the process of testing the Judicial branch by simply ignoring it (eg: the recent deportations).

If they can render the Judicial irrelevant, and bribe/scare the legislature into compliance, then Trump will indeed be absolute Monarch.... The constitution will be a dead letter with no meaning, and Law will be defined by might makes right.
Sad, very sad we have come to this.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Stephen Miller:

>>>“A district court judge has no authority to direct the national security operations of the executive branch. The president has operated the absolute apex of his constitutional authority.”<<<


Me: Stephen Miller has precisely the same legal education a dung beetle, and it shows.

Let's take a look at the law in question:

>>>§23. Jurisdiction of United States courts and judges

After any such proclamation has been made, the several courts of the United States, having criminal jurisdiction, and the several justices and judges of the courts of the United States, are authorized and it shall be their duty, upon complaint against any alien enemy resident and at large within such jurisdiction or district, to the danger of the public peace or safety, and contrary to the tenor or intent of such proclamation, or other regulations which the President may have established, to cause such alien to be duly apprehended and conveyed before such court, judge, or justice; and after a full examination and hearing on such complaint, and sufficient cause appearing, to order such alien to be removed out of the territory of the United States, or to give sureties for his good behavior, or to be otherwise restrained, conformably to the proclamation or regulations established as aforesaid, and to imprison, or otherwise secure such alien, until the order which may be so made shall be performed.<<< (emphasis added)


I suppose a certain number of people will believe the dung beetle.
 
D

dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
Stephen Miller:

>>>“A district court judge has no authority to direct the national security operations of the executive branch. The president has operated the absolute apex of his constitutional authority.”<<<


Me: Stephen Miller has precisely the same legal education a dung beetle, and it shows.

Let's take a look at the law in question:

>>>§23. Jurisdiction of United States courts and judges

After any such proclamation has been made, the several courts of the United States, having criminal jurisdiction, and the several justices and judges of the courts of the United States, are authorized and it shall be their duty, upon complaint against any alien enemy resident and at large within such jurisdiction or district, to the danger of the public peace or safety, and contrary to the tenor or intent of such proclamation, or other regulations which the President may have established, to cause such alien to be duly apprehended and conveyed before such court, judge, or justice; and after a full examination and hearing on such complaint, and sufficient cause appearing, to order such alien to be removed out of the territory of the United States, or to give sureties for his good behavior, or to be otherwise restrained, conformably to the proclamation or regulations established as aforesaid, and to imprison, or otherwise secure such alien, until the order which may be so made shall be performed.<<< (emphasis added)


I suppose a certain number of people will believe the dung beetle.
If the dung beetle controls the enforcement arms of the system, then the judicial branch ends up as a toothless tiger....

The early stages of "Project 2025" has involved replacing the heads of all the enforcement branches, and wherever possible defunding the rest (ie: control those where the executive appoints the heads, and defund / neuter the rest)

Now we will find out, whether it has succeeded or not.

Musk has also been opening his ample pockets to provide additional funds to GOP .... so the bribe is out - support the Monarch or lose your re-election funding....

If they can manage to corrupt enough legislators, then his royal highness is safe.

And "L'etat c'est moi" will be the law of the land.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Warlord
Stephen Miller:

>>>“A district court judge has no authority to direct the national security operations of the executive branch. The president has operated the absolute apex of his constitutional authority.”<<<


Me: Stephen Miller has precisely the same legal education a dung beetle, and it shows.

Let's take a look at the law in question:

>>>§23. Jurisdiction of United States courts and judges

After any such proclamation has been made, the several courts of the United States, having criminal jurisdiction, and the several justices and judges of the courts of the United States, are authorized and it shall be their duty, upon complaint against any alien enemy resident and at large within such jurisdiction or district, to the danger of the public peace or safety, and contrary to the tenor or intent of such proclamation, or other regulations which the President may have established, to cause such alien to be duly apprehended and conveyed before such court, judge, or justice; and after a full examination and hearing on such complaint, and sufficient cause appearing, to order such alien to be removed out of the territory of the United States, or to give sureties for his good behavior, or to be otherwise restrained, conformably to the proclamation or regulations established as aforesaid, and to imprison, or otherwise secure such alien, until the order which may be so made shall be performed.<<< (emphasis added)


I suppose a certain number of people will believe the dung beetle.
I can still feel the slimy crawling up my back whenever I think of Stephen Miller.
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic Samurai
This is a rarely used law, so the usual disclaimers about it being outside my area of practice and so on apply double

The law is intended to apply to wars and invasions, but I suspect that most courts would largely defer to the President in terms of whether or not a particular set of facts constitutes an invasion (i.e. if congress has not declared war). The gist of it is that courts don't want to second guess a president on matters of national security and tend to say in so many words that "This is an issue involving national security and congress granted the President broad authority to take action, so we're not going to second guess the President, it's up to congress to revise the law if they don't want the President to take action in this situation."

On the other hand, courts are normally hesitant to allow a President to invoke national security and emergency powers as a pretext to make a power grab. The law concerning due process rights of noncitizens has evolved significantly over the years, and a court could hold that Trump's actions violated the due process rights of the prisoners in this case (this would be a way to sidestep second guessing the President on the issue of whether not the Act applies at all).

The final outcome is very unclear to me.

This is back in the news because the judge is holding hearings on whether or not the Trump admininistration violated the court order by not turning the planes around.


As a factual matter, it's not entirely clear based on the news reports if the planes landed before the order was issued. If the earlier reports are accurate and the Trump administratoin did ignore the court order, this would be the first example of this that I'm aware of.


The DOJ appears to asserting that the court lost jurisdiction once the planes were over international waters. My initial impression is that this is a weak argument, if in fact it is being asserted.

An undercurrent in many of these cases is that the executive branch (Trump) is asserting that the courts don't have jurisdiction (power) to control actions by the executive branch. Trump is basically asking the courts to declare themselves powerless. This is obviously not sitting well with many of the Article III federal judges, but I could imagine this Supreme Court castrating themselves in a harakiri-like display of loyalty to Trump.

But, back to the disclaimers, I'm not an expert in this area of the law and I have not researched the issues.
I looked into this pretty deep. Looks like the order to turn the planes around was verbal and given during a recess. The DOJ attorneys were present via live video but likely not during the verbal order although they would have been made aware quickly. Ludecke makes it pretty clear this judge “likely” doesn’t have standing but that needs testing which is what’s happening now.

Let me add I’m getting tired of the Right ranting about “activist judges” like little children. We have 3 co-equal branches of government and it’s the job of federal judges to issue rulings which then play out through the courts. This is how our system is designed to function. Robert’s recent statement although correct could have been made a bit more tactfully but here we are.

edit add: the judges order to turn the planes around immediately would still take a couple hours to make its way to the aircraft pilots with probably a dozen people between the DOJ attorneys and the operation to deport. Also once the planes land in El Salvador they really are outside US Jurisdiction and the orders are toast anyway.

There are immigration judges for the deportee’s so due process is not being violated although it’s an expedited process
 
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T

TankTop5

Audioholic Samurai
Checks and balances are such quaint notions.

This is a pretty good summary of events:
I stopped listening with the first sentence, “this is a very very dark time….” this is sensationalism. There are numerous times when a President has ignored the courts and nothing new. What could and should happen is Congress passes a law stripping Federal judges of jurisdiction, it’s a bit nuts that any one of 869 Federal judges can issue any order they want on any topic they want. A simple solution to bring a little order to the courts and there would still be Federal judges to rule on any topic, just within their specific jurisdiction.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Warlord
Due process- here's to hoping they're all illegals and all criminals. Oh boy.... :rolleyes:
 
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