PCM Has No Bass

[Spottedfeather]

I was having trouble hearing a certain scene of dialogue. I was told to change bitstream to PCM. When I did, the dialogue WAS easier to hear. The problem is that if I use PCM, there is practically no bass.

For example, during the intro of Jurassic Park, when the titles appear, there is a huge deep boom noise. With bitstream, you can almost feel the boom in your chest. But if I run that scene with PCM, there's no bass at all. Going from bitstream to PCM is the only setting change I made...other than turning off BD secondary audio.

Any ideas why this is happening ? Should I turn the subwoofer up ? Currently it's set at +2 on mode settings, while it's set at, I think, 0 on the setup done with the microphone. I could be wrong about these settings, though

 

[lovinthehd]

Need more info about your source, gear and settings involved but at a guess your PCM is 2.0 channel, rather than multich PCM (LPCM), and has no LFE.

 

[Sawtaytoes]

Interesting. I'm noticing a similar issue.

First, I think you should be using bitstream audio (which supports PCM too) rather than PCM audio output.

My Similar Issue

I have 2-channel PCM files on shows I've imported from Japan. I rip the discs and add subtitles, but I've found there's no bass in the playback like there is on my PC.

Switching to the AC3 track, it's like the sound opened up. Instead of sounding like a 64kbps MP3 with no bass, it sounded like a regular-quality audio track with tons of bass and sound that had much more atmosphere when upmixed.

The only thing weird about the PCM track is it's 24-bit 48kHz. I'm using Plex, and this page says that's not supported even if the Shield itself supports this audio format:

I'm thinking your player might have the same issue. It might be converting 24-bit Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA to 16-bit PCM. Whatever it's doing, it's removing the bass. If you listen closely, it might also be making the audio sound very low-bitrate-MP3 compressed.

My Gear

• I have HDMI passthrough enabled on both the Shield and in Plex.
• I disabled the PCM to Dolby Digital conversion that the Shield has on by default.
• My receiver is the Marantz AV 10 and my TV is the LG G2 OLED.
• My connections are Shield → Receiver → TV.
• I have the Dolby Surround upmixer enabled; not Direct, but it's the same regardless of what setting I try.
• I made an AVSForum post with more details (including screenshots) here: PCM audio with no bass on NVIDIA Shield & Plex? | AVS Forum

I thought it might be a Plex issue, and it might be, but I'm also wondering if it's an AVR issue where the Marantz AV 10 simply doesn't support bass output with PCM audio.

 

[Trebdp83]

Without a multichannel track containing LFE, an AVP/AVR will send the lower frequencies of the two channels to the subwoofer based on the crossover setting of the Small Front Speakers.

If the Front Speakers are set to Large, no lower frequencies will be sent to the subwoofer unless LFE+Main is selected in the subwoofer setting concerning Denon/Marantz models.

As always, information concerning all of the devices and settings in a system are not only helpful, but essential in trying to figure things out.

 

[dlaloum]

in PCM mode you are sending the discreet channels...

Your AVR then determines how to process cross over and mix those channels.

The LFE (x.1, low frequency effects) channel, is often mistaken for the bass... as many setups have the Sub output labelled LFE...

The issue then is how does your AVR manage the main channel and LFE bass?

If you have your mains "crossed over" (and not set to full range) - then, in theory, the bass from the mains, below the XO frequency, should be sent to the Sub, along with the LFE channel - so the LFE and the Bass from the Mains would be mixed together on the sub output.

Many setups nowadays are based on mains that have no reall bass output, due to everyone having a sub, and smaller "satellite" speakers are easier to place, live with, and get WAF ...

The trouble is, if you then try to run the in "pure" modes (ie: each channel is sent exclusively to its speaker, and no crossovers or mixing is invoked) - you will find the sound lacking in bass.

Typically when you switch from one mode eg: bitstream to another eg: pcm - the AVR is configured to select a specific processing method for each mode by default (on some this is configurable, on others not so much!) - that default mode may be a "Pure Direct" style mode (no XO's) or it might be a blended/mixed mode (use the sub for bass from all channels) - but without further investigation, forum members like myself out in the virtual space, cannot tell.

This is what I would be investigating, were I in your shoes.... what mode is the AVR in when running bitstream, and what mode when running PCM... there is a very high likelihood that the audible difference is in that mode.

 

[isolar8001]

This was discussed pretty thoroughly here...Post#9 was interesting.

PCM Has No Bass

www.avsforum.com

 

[Eppie]

This was discussed pretty thoroughly here...Post#9 was interesting.

PCM Has No Bass

www.avsforum.com

Posts #9 and 10 removed.

 

[Sawtaytoes]

I found a number of issues with my setup last month when I went to recalibrate everything because I'd gotten so frustrated with how bad it sounded:

1. Left Surround speaker was disconnected. The green plug on my Ascendo speaker fell out somehow.
2. One of my 4 subs wasn't making any sound. The cable needed to be re-seated. I didn't use banana plugs so the kids wouldn't break it, but because of that, the screw-down terminal wasn't connected cleanly.
3. My Dirac Live filter was wrong. I can't remember what it was set to at this point, but that was another issue.
4. ... I can't remember, but there was definitely a fourth thing.

These could've all contributed to the issues I heard with PCM audio. Not sure at what point any of these occurred nor how AC3 had better quality with bass either. It's possible these issues all occurred after I posted. It's strange that the same night, I got more bass from AC3 than PCM.

 

[Trebdp83]

If the AC-3(Dolby Digital) signal is 5.1, it contains a discreet LFE channel. A PCM 2.0 signal will need to be bass managed to get a signal to the subwoofer. If you are using the Direct or Pure Direct sound mode and the subwoofer setting is LFE, you will not get a signal to the subwoofer playing PCM 2.0 signals.

Owners of units such as the Marantz AV10 get to have their cake and eat it too concerning subwoofer settings. Some have towers they want crossed for movies and want at Full Band for music with a subwoofer complimenting the bass. The AV10 features 2CH Playback settings. Two channel signals using Stereo or Direct mode can have their own subwoofer settings.

For those wanting bass from the subwoofer when playing two channel signals in Stereo mode or Direct mode and Fronts are set to Large, the 2CH Playback Subwoofer setting should be set to LFE+Main. Crossover and LFE settings for the Main Subwoofer settings will be unaffected.

Don’t confuse PCM 2.0 with multichannel PCM. A multichannel PCM signal contains a discreet LFE channel. Conversely, not every AC-3(Dolby Digital) signal contains LFE and many are 2.0. If you want bass output from the subwoofer playing 2.0 tracks, the AVP/AVR must be set accordingly.

 

[Sawtaytoes]

The AC3 and PCM signals are stereo:

There are two AC3 tracks because the last one is the commentary track (also AC3 stereo).

I have Ascendo speakers, and they can't get low. I have to set a fairly high crossover at ~120Hz or higher. Point being, it should cross over for any bass. As far as I know, that's how it's been configured. What setting should I look for if I want to ensure it's crossing over those speakers for bass in PCM mode? I do have the speakers set to "Small" and a crossover configured.

Also note, I had both PCM and AC3 on the same settings; pretty sure, unless the AV 10 magically changed the audio settings for a different audio type. I know it changes the surround upmixer mode based on the audio type.

I also was not using DIRECT or PURE DIRECT, but good to know that removes the subwoofer.

 

[Trebdp83]

AC-3(Dolby Digital) 2.0 signals will be processed using the Dolby Surround(up mixer) sound mode by default. PCM 2.0 signals will be processed using the Stereo sound mode by default.

In either case, using those two default sound modes with speakers set to Small using a 120Hz crossover should result in the subwoofer receiving a signal and producing bass

Without changing any settings, play both signals and report the number of incoming channels and the sound mode in play for each signal using the Marantz’ onscreen info display.

Check the 2CH Playback Speaker and Subwoofer settings. They should mimic the settings made in Speaker settings by default and be set to Auto. Confirm as much or make any needed settings changes.

The PCM 2.0 signal will be output using the 2CH Playback settings if using the default Stereo sound mode. If the 2CH Playback settings have been altered from their Defaults, no bass output from the subwoofer can result.

 

[dlaloum]

If the AC-3(Dolby Digital) signal is 5.1, it contains a discreet LFE channel. A PCM 2.0 signal will need to be bass managed to get a signal to the subwoofer. If you are using the Direct or Pure Direct sound mode and the subwoofer setting is LFE, you will not get a signal to the subwoofer playing PCM 2.0 signals.

Owners of units such as the Marantz AV10 get to have their cake and eat it too concerning subwoofer settings. Some have towers they want crossed for movies and want at Full Band for music with a subwoofer complimenting the bass. The AV10 features 2CH Playback settings. Two channel signals using Stereo or Direct mode can have their own subwoofer settings.

For those wanting bass from the subwoofer when playing two channel signals in Stereo mode or Direct mode and Fronts are set to Large, the 2CH Playback Subwoofer setting should be set to LFE+Main. Crossover and LFE settings for the Main Subwoofer settings will be unaffected.

Don’t confuse PCM 2.0 with multichannel PCM. A multichannel PCM signal contains a discreet LFE channel. Conversely, not every AC-3(Dolby Digital) signal contains LFE and many are 2.0. If you want bass output from the subwoofer playing 2.0 tracks, the AVP/AVR must be set accordingly.

It is always worthwhile reminding people that LFE stands for Low Frequency Effects.... and it is not a "subwoofer" in the traditional sense of crossing over the mains primary signal.... in fact when running as LFE it has no relationship whatsoever with the L & R channels!

I run my setup in LFE+Main to leverage the full range capabilities of my mains as well as the subwoofer, for more than just LFE....

 

[Trebdp83]

Things get more complicated still with a unit as capable as the AV10. While 2CH signals using 2CH Playback settings have been discussed here in the last few posts, the 2CH Playback feature also applies to multichannel signals when using Stereo mode.

While the Stereo sound mode is the default sound mode for PCM 2.0, it is also the only sound mode selectable for every other kind of signal. So, the 2CH Playback settings also contain the “LFE Distribution” setting for multichannel signals containing LFE. It can determine how much of the LFE can be distributed to capable Front Speakers set to Large when playing multichannel signals containing LFE in Stereo mode.

The 2CH Playback settings may seem redundant but the AV10 also supports Front A/B Speaker settings. All of the 2CH Playback settings can be applied to Full Band towers assigned to Front B used for Stereo mode playback of 2CH and multichannel signals or Direct mode for 2CH signals. Smaller and less capable Front Speakers can be assigned to Front A. Using Front B speakers will limit the AV10 processing to 13.1 channels and the pre out used for the Front B speakers will be determined by the speaker layout.