Help with Jargon and Specs to focus on for 5.1 system shopping

[Grymlot]

I'm building a 5.1 system with the idea that I may add 2 or 4 atmos speakers in the future. I'm trying to keep my budget around 2,000 but I am ok if it pushes up to maybe $2,500. For wattage considerations, I'm considering the Denon X1800H, the Onkyo TX-NR7100, and the Onkyo RZ50 (although this one makes the budget tight). My questions are about how to shop for my speakers. I'm buying them for a room that's 11.5ft x 16ft, dedicated for watching movies.

1. I know the term 'reference' seems to refer to matching movie theater sound, but does it always? This also makes me wonder if the term "monitor" in the name are intended for music or studios, such as the Polk Monitor XT series speakers. Should I be focused on these terms or not? Are there other words I should know about?

2. YouTube videos seem to direct me toward looking at speaker sensitivity, and I've learned higher sensitivities, like in the 90s, will put less stress on my receiver. Because I'm trying to spend less than $1,000 on a receiver, this seems like a good spec to focus on. However, I also see that everyone seems to like the SVS sound speakers, which drew my eye to this package deal: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_700PRTWRBA/SVS-Prime-Tower-5-0-Home-Theater-Speaker-System-Black-Ash.html?tp=184 on some Prime tower speakers, but their sensitivity is only 87dB. How do I balance the receiver wattage vs speaker sensitivity? Does sensitivity matter more on the towers vs the surround bookshelves and even in-ceiling atmos speakers?

3. How important is the frequency range at my budget level? I noticed the SVS Pinnacle towers are a bit nicer and the Crutchfield review talks about a nice bass frequency range. This package is a bit too much for my budget, but I wonder if I wouldn't need a subwoofer with the wider range here? If so, maybe a black friday sale would bring this down into my price range?: SVS Prime Pinnacle Tower 5.0 Home Theater Speaker System (Black Ash) Featuring SVS Prime Pinnacle Tower, Center, and Satellite speakers at Crutchfield

4. What other specs are important at my budget level? I notice stats like power handling and crossover frequencies, but not sure if those are anything to focus on or not. Lots of videos claim it's a very subjective thing, but I think listening to lots of speakers before buying is pretty difficult these days. I've also heard movies are less about subjective sound and more about a neutral sound, so that's my aim here.

5. The Onkyo receivers I mentioned are really cheap right now, and I noticed the Klipsch website mentions "Klipsch and Onkyo have teamed up to implement precise crossover values for the Klipsch Reference Premiere speakers..." Is this a worthwhile combination to pursue? I do like the look of the Klipsch speakers, but I sense there are some bad attitudes about them with some of the audiophiles. I like the idea of grabbing a package deal system on a black friday deal from them, but the closest package I can find is this one and it doesn't make sense to me. It says it's 5.1, but it shows 2 of the 5 speakers are upfiring atmos style speakers. What am I misunderstanding here? R-600F 5.1 Home Theater System | Klipsch (Also, if you have suggestions on building a Klipsch 5.1 system, let me know)

6. Since I mentiond a few systems I'm looking at, I also like the look of this fluance system in case anyone has any feedback: HFHTB Signature 5.0 Home Theater Speaker System (Black Ash) | Fluance

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm building a 5.1 system with the idea that I may add 2 or 4 atmos speakers in the future. I'm trying to keep my budget around 2,000 but I am ok if it pushes up to maybe $2,500. For wattage considerations, I'm considering the Denon X1800H, the Onkyo TX-NR7100, and the Onkyo RZ50 (although this one makes the budget tight). My questions are about how to shop for my speakers. I'm buying them for a room that's 11.5ft x 16ft, dedicated for watching movies.

1. I know the term 'reference' seems to refer to matching movie theater sound, but does it always? This also makes me wonder if the term "monitor" in the name are intended for music or studios, such as the Polk Monitor XT series speakers. Should I be focused on these terms or not? Are there other words I should know about?

2. YouTube videos seem to direct me toward looking at speaker sensitivity, and I've learned higher sensitivities, like in the 90s, will put less stress on my receiver. Because I'm trying to spend less than $1,000 on a receiver, this seems like a good spec to focus on. However, I also see that everyone seems to like the SVS sound speakers, which drew my eye to this package deal: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_700PRTWRBA/SVS-Prime-Tower-5-0-Home-Theater-Speaker-System-Black-Ash.html?tp=184 on some Prime tower speakers, but their sensitivity is only 87dB. How do I balance the receiver wattage vs speaker sensitivity? Does sensitivity matter more on the towers vs the surround bookshelves and even in-ceiling atmos speakers?

3. How important is the frequency range at my budget level? I noticed the SVS Pinnacle towers are a bit nicer and the Crutchfield review talks about a nice bass frequency range. This package is a bit too much for my budget, but I wonder if I wouldn't need a subwoofer with the wider range here? If so, maybe a black friday sale would bring this down into my price range?: SVS Prime Pinnacle Tower 5.0 Home Theater Speaker System (Black Ash) Featuring SVS Prime Pinnacle Tower, Center, and Satellite speakers at Crutchfield

4. What other specs are important at my budget level? I notice stats like power handling and crossover frequencies, but not sure if those are anything to focus on or not. Lots of videos claim it's a very subjective thing, but I think listening to lots of speakers before buying is pretty difficult these days. I've also heard movies are less about subjective sound and more about a neutral sound, so that's my aim here.

5. The Onkyo receivers I mentioned are really cheap right now, and I noticed the Klipsch website mentions "Klipsch and Onkyo have teamed up to implement precise crossover values for the Klipsch Reference Premiere speakers..." Is this a worthwhile combination to pursue? I do like the look of the Klipsch speakers, but I sense there are some bad attitudes about them with some of the audiophiles. I like the idea of grabbing a package deal system on a black friday deal from them, but the closest package I can find is this one and it doesn't make sense to me. It says it's 5.1, but it shows 2 of the 5 speakers are upfiring atmos style speakers. What am I misunderstanding here? R-600F 5.1 Home Theater System | Klipsch (Also, if you have suggestions on building a Klipsch 5.1 system, let me know)

6. Since I mentiond a few systems I'm looking at, I also like the look of this fluance system in case anyone has any feedback: HFHTB Signature 5.0 Home Theater Speaker System (Black Ash) | Fluance

I would avoid Onkyo on grounds of reliability and go with Denon. Your budget is lean. That is not truly an Atmos receiver. It only has seven channels. The rear surrounds are assignable as a pair of Atmos speakers.

It is not a very powerful receiver, so you are correct your system will not achieve concert levels. That is not important as quality is what you need to concentrate on. Speakers you really need to hear, so you need right of return, or find a place where you can audition them. That is difficult these days. But speakers more than any other component will determine the sound you hear and the overall quality. I notice you did not include a sub which is essential for a true home theater experience. I would go for a 5.1 system in your price range for starters.

 

[Grymlot]

Right, if I go Denon, I'd need to stick with 5.1.2, or upgrade, but the 9 channel Denon is quite a jump in price.

Yes, I do plan to get a subwoofer as well, which is included in many of the package deals but not all. I figured I'd be spending something like 2-300 on a sub.

Thanks for the input!

 

[Swerd]

The details you provided help us answer your questions, especially your room size and intended budget. Thanks.

I know the term 'reference' seems to refer to matching movie theater sound, but does it always? This also makes me wonder if the term "monitor" in the name are intended for music or studios, such as the Polk Monitor XT series speakers. Should I be focused on these terms or not? Are there other words I should know about?

Don't worry about terms like 'Reference' or 'Monitor', they are more marketing terms than anything else.

Movie theaters are much larger than any room at home. That has a major effect on sound. You simply cannot reproduce movie theater sound at home no matter how much money you throw at it.

YouTube videos seem to direct me toward looking at speaker sensitivity, and I've learned higher sensitivities, like in the 90s, will put less stress on my receiver. Because I'm trying to spend less than $1,000 on a receiver, this seems like a good spec to focus on.

However, I also see that everyone seems to like the SVS sound speakers, which drew my eye to this package deal: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_700PRTWRBA/SVS-Prime-Tower-5-0-Home-Theater-Speaker-System-Black-Ash.html?tp=184 on some Prime tower speakers, but their sensitivity is only 87dB. How do I balance the receiver wattage vs speaker sensitivity? Does sensitivity matter more on the towers vs the surround bookshelves and even in-ceiling atmos speakers?

Don't worry about 80 vs. 100 Watts. You won't hear a difference until you at least double the power. Both the Denon (80 watts per channel) and Onkyo (100 wpc) receivers have similar power output. Both AVRs have enough power to drive those 87 dB SVS speakers you mentioned.

TLS Guy recommended the Denon over the Onkyo. I agree. That model Denon does offer pre-amp outputs for the front left & right channels. (See photo below) In the future, if you find you need greater amplification power, it will be easy & less expensive to add a stand alone 2-channel power amp to drive those front two speakers. That Denon AVR can easily drive all those other speakers if they're relieved from driving of the front two speakers.

The Onkyo model you mentioned lacks that feature.

I'd focus on any speaker in your price range with sensitivities of roughly 86-88 dB. There is no standard in the audio industry for measuring & reporting speaker sensitivity. In particular, Klipsch tends to rate their speakers' sensitivities somewhat higher than most other speaker makers. Their marketing department is well aware of those YouTube videos you mentioned. So I wouldn't try to compare speakers based on sensitivity alone. It becomes an apples vs. oranges comparison. (In my opinion, I don't like how Klipsch speakers sound – they're too shrill. But your preferences are more important than mine.)

Much more important is how natural speakers sound with human voices. Everyone has experience with hearing them. Unamplified single musical instruments such as piano or guitar can also be good for identifying a natural sound, if you have enough experience with them.

What do you listen for? If a speaker has falsely exaggerated bass, a male voice sounds too 'chesty' or 'boomy'. Uneven sounding treble is harder to describe as easily in words, but you will know right away if male or female voices sound unnatural. Too little treble will result in voices sounding indistinct or dull. Too much, or uneven sounding treble results in voices sounding too bright, harsh, or shrill. Even mildly exaggerated treble can at first make voices sound unusually clear, crisp, or distinct. With time that becomes fatiguing to your ears. So look for natural sounding voices. I hope that helps.

 

[Eppie]

Agree with what Swerd and TLS Guy had to say.

I'm building a 5.1 system with the idea that I may add 2 or 4 atmos speakers in the future. I'm trying to keep my budget around 2,000 but I am ok if it pushes up to maybe $2,500. For wattage considerations, I'm considering the Denon X1800H, the Onkyo TX-NR7100, and the Onkyo RZ50 (although this one makes the budget tight). My questions are about how to shop for my speakers. I'm buying them for a room that's 11.5ft x 16ft, dedicated for watching movies.

1. I know the term 'reference' seems to refer to matching movie theater sound, but does it always? This also makes me wonder if the term "monitor" in the name are intended for music or studios, such as the Polk Monitor XT series speakers. Should I be focused on these terms or not? Are there other words I should know about?

Reference is a more of a marketing term that you can ignore. Monitor refers more to the style and size of speaker, typically a larger bookshelf, but can be marketing speak as well.

2. YouTube videos seem to direct me toward looking at speaker sensitivity, and I've learned higher sensitivities, like in the 90s, will put less stress on my receiver. Because I'm trying to spend less than $1,000 on a receiver, this seems like a good spec to focus on. However, I also see that everyone seems to like the SVS sound speakers, which drew my eye to this package deal: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_700PRTWRBA/SVS-Prime-Tower-5-0-Home-Theater-Speaker-System-Black-Ash.html?tp=184 on some Prime tower speakers, but their sensitivity is only 87dB. How do I balance the receiver wattage vs speaker sensitivity? Does sensitivity matter more on the towers vs the surround bookshelves and even in-ceiling atmos speakers?

Most content goes to the front 3, so don't worry about ratings on surround and ATMOS. The 87dB for the Prime Towers is just fine. Klipsch tend to have higher sensitivity due to their horns, but they are also known for overstating their sensitivity. It should only be a concern to you if you are wanting concert level volume. For most people anything in the 87dB range is ok. A higher sensitivity speaker will player louder given the same amount of power. It takes double the amplifier power to increase volume by 3dB, so a difference of 80W to 100W is not as much as people think.

The Prime towers are considered a good starter package at that price and worth considering. SVS has free returns in the U.S. As to Klipsch, it comes down to personal preference. They are sold in many locations so they are one of the easier brands to demo. I would avoid their cheaper subs though on account of reliability.

3. How important is the frequency range at my budget level? I noticed the SVS Pinnacle towers are a bit nicer and the Crutchfield review talks about a nice bass frequency range. This package is a bit too much for my budget, but I wonder if I wouldn't need a subwoofer with the wider range here? If so, maybe a black friday sale would bring this down into my price range?: SVS Prime Pinnacle Tower 5.0 Home Theater Speaker System (Black Ash) Featuring SVS Prime Pinnacle Tower, Center, and Satellite speakers at Crutchfield

Well, you get what you pay for. The Pinnacles are better but it appears to be the same surrounds and center. To step up the center you would want the Ultra Evolution center but that might be something to save up for down the road. The Pinnacles are rated down to 30Hz and for music they would do fine without a sub, but for home theatre movie effects you want to be able to reproduce bass down to 20Hz, which means getting a subwoofer. If on a tight budget, you should look at the Prime tower and get a good sub. Check the specs! A sub rated down to 30Hz is no better than a good tower speaker. You want bass extension at least to 25Hz and 20Hz preferred.

4. What other specs are important at my budget level? I notice stats like power handling and crossover frequencies, but not sure if those are anything to focus on or not. Lots of videos claim it's a very subjective thing, but I think listening to lots of speakers before buying is pretty difficult these days. I've also heard movies are less about subjective sound and more about a neutral sound, so that's my aim here.

General consensus is that you want a speaker that is close to neutral as possible, but it also comes down to personal taste. Power handling is not a concern unless you get bookshelves and want to drive them really hard. Power handling is max continuous power and most movie content actually only needs a few watts. Cross overs are not so much a concern in that price range but in general you want to avoid cross overs that operate in the speech band. That can be hard to avoid for a lot of manufacturers.

5. The Onkyo receivers I mentioned are really cheap right now, and I noticed the Klipsch website mentions "Klipsch and Onkyo have teamed up to implement precise crossover values for the Klipsch Reference Premiere speakers..." Is this a worthwhile combination to pursue? I do like the look of the Klipsch speakers, but I sense there are some bad attitudes about them with some of the audiophiles. I like the idea of grabbing a package deal system on a black friday deal from them, but the closest package I can find is this one and it doesn't make sense to me. It says it's 5.1, but it shows 2 of the 5 speakers are upfiring atmos style speakers. What am I misunderstanding here? R-600F 5.1 Home Theater System | Klipsch (Also, if you have suggestions on building a Klipsch 5.1 system, let me know)

Package deals can be a good way to save money. Try and demo some Klipsch if you can. The more speakers you can demo the better. What I don't like in that package is the upward firing ATMOS that sit on the towers. Those only work under specific conditions. In ceiling ATMOS or surface mounted height speakers are much better. The Onkyo RZ AVRs are reviewing well but reliability and support is an unknown, so I went with Denon on my last 2 purchases.

6. Since I mentiond a few systems I'm looking at, I also like the look of this Fluance system in case anyone has any feedback: HFHTB Signature 5.0 Home Theater Speaker System (Black Ash) | Fluance

Fluance has received good reviews in the past but I'm not familiar with that line. Maybe @shadyJ can comment on that package. It's a two way center though. I would lean more towards SVS as they have a good reputation and free trial.

 

[Grymlot]

There is no standard in the audio industry for measuring & reporting speaker sensitivity.

Can you explain this more? I thought the standard was right in the standard spec format... IE decibels at 2.83V at 1m, or 1 watt at 1m. Being inexperienced here, as an analogy, hardware stores all sell tape measures with inches and feet but it sounds like you're saying those inches and feet aren't standard measurements.

What do you listen for?

I don't know? I just usually watch on a TV. And when I buy a TV, I don't think about how it sounds. I will admit though, we have one TV in the house where the voices are very quiet so we have to turn up the volume and then when there's background music is way too loud and we have to turn it down. I think I just want the sound to come out as the film maker intended? That's what I thought the idea was with home theater... in other words, music lovers have a preference for what they like in music, such as more bass, but for movies, you want to hear what the film maker intended you to hear. That being said, I've never been overly enthusiastic about more bass in my music or anything, so I just want a well rounded sound where the vocals don't get drowned out, but I also suspect that my crappy TV sound system is the problem there and any sound system sound bar or better would solve that problem... so I guess I really don't have a great answer for you. I mean obviously "shrill" doesn't sound good. I would want voices to not be too quiet and otherwise just sound like real life.

 

[Grymlot]

Regarding listening to the speakers myself, is it realistic that if I found showrooms in my area, that they'd have any speakers within my price range? I would think not? I mean the Best Buy Magnolia showroom is likely targeting above my budget, isn't it?

Also, if I buy and return speakers... aren't they charging me for shipping? That bumps my price up.

 

[Grymlot]

It's a two way center though

Remember how new I am to this. This was a significant comment for me. Chat GPT helped explain that a 2 way speaker only has a tweeter and a woofer, while a 3 way speaker has a mid-range driver speaker as well, which improves certain sounds including dialogue. I hope I am understanding right there. Let me know if there are other things like this I may be missing.

A sub rated down to 30Hz is no better than a good tower speaker. You want bass extension at least to 25Hz and 20Hz preferred.

This was also great information. Thanks! Although, it looks like subwoofers in the $2-300 range don't go down below 30hz generally, so I may need to shift some of the budget over toward the subwoofer.

 

[Swerd]

Can you explain this more? I thought the standard was right in the standard spec format... IE decibels at 2.83V at 1m, or 1 watt at 1m. Being inexperienced here, as an analogy, hardware stores all sell tape measures with inches and feet but it sounds like you're saying those inches and feet aren't standard measurements.

When I said "There is no standard in the audio industry for measuring & reporting speaker sensitivity", I meant there is more to it than measuring with a 2.83V signal while 1m away. Sensitivity depends heavily on where the speaker sits in a room. Is it in a normal room with walls, floor & ceiling? Or is it in an anechoic chamber that deadens reflected sound? If in a normal room, how far is the speaker from reflecting surfaces, especially walls? It is known that Klipsch, among some others, measure sensitivity with speakers in a corner, nearby two reflecting surfaces. That results in a higher sensitivity value than with the same speaker far from reflecting surfaces.

Very few speaker manufacturers have an anechoic room. Revel does, but I don't know if others exist. So most sensitivities are measured in normal rooms. However there is no standard as to how near to or far from walls a speaker is located.

 

[Mikado463]

Very few speaker manufacturers have an anechoic room. Revel does, but I don't know if others exist.

Martin Logan did, at least when they built their speakers in Lawrence, Ks.

 

[Swerd]

Can you explain this more? I thought the standard was right in the standard spec format... IE decibels at 2.83V at 1m, or 1 watt at 1m. Being inexperienced here, as an analogy, hardware stores all sell tape measures with inches and feet but it sounds like you're saying those inches and feet aren't standard measurements.

Here's another detail of measuring sensitivity that varies among different speaker makers. Is the sensitivity measured at one frequency such as 1,000 Hz? Or is measured and averaged over a range such as 300 to 3,000 Hz? Again, there is no standard. The bottom line is don't try to directly compare speaker sensitivities from different manufacturers unless they are really measured the same way.

 

[Eppie]

Remember how new I am to this. This was a significant comment for me. Chat GPT helped explain that a 2 way speaker only has a tweeter and a woofer, while a 3 way speaker has a mid-range driver speaker as well, which improves certain sounds including dialogue. I hope I am understanding right there. Let me know if there are other things like this I may be missing.

This was also great information. Thanks! Although, it looks like subwoofers in the $2-300 range don't go down below 30hz generally, so I may need to shift some of the budget over toward the subwoofer.

A two way centre speaker can be subject to what they call combing effect, where the response changes as you move off axis (left or right of centre) from the speaker. 3-way centres are less prone to this. For a single user it is less of a concern. For multiple viewers where people may sit off to the side, a 3-way works better but obviously will cost more.

For a budget sub you can consider Dayton. Their Sub-1200 goes down to 25Hz and the Sub-1500 does a little better with a 23Hz rating. You would likely need to spend twice that to see a significant improvement over these. Klipsch does well in the higher end, but I would avoid their budget subs. I used to have one and it's performance was well below the SVS that I own now and it started to fail as well.

 

[-Jim-]

I struggled deciding whether to post in this thread as to not come across as too much of a Fanboy of HSU CCB-8s, but I really think these are among the best value for $ out there. (I have them across our Front Stage in our Atmos System in the Games Room). With a Budget of $2500 I'd go towards a similar setup.

According to the Hsu Research CCB-8 Bookshelf Speaker Review, the CCB-8s (which now have Black cones and gain a much better WAF) are 88 dB sensitive in full-space, which makes them relatively easy to drive in a medium sized room such as @Grymlot advises he has. He also advises struggling with dialogue when watching TV which the CCB-8s are stellar at. As mentioned some center channel speakers (MTM designs) are subject to Lobing which is eliminated in this coaxial design. Some KEFs would also work well in this case.

The problem with the CCB-8s is finding them in Stock at times. HSU does bundle them in 3 (or 5) and I've seen them packaged with their Subs from time to time, but their discounts are modest. (Their Subs typically also have great reviews.) Anyway, I'd pencil in $1K for 3 CCB-8s across the Front. If the Denon AVR-X1800H is still of choice you can grab a Factory Refurbished one with a year of Denon Warranty for $500 with free delivery. Personally I'd go for the Denon AVR-X2800H for $50 more. That would leave about $1K for the Sub(s) & Surrounds.

I know "perfection" for some is having all 5 bed level speakers the same, and that's probably true, but trade offs need to be made based on Budgets => and available cash. (IMHO these systems are fabulous toys and should never be bought on credit.) To that end, and to keep it simple, perhaps bundling a pair of HSU HB-1 MK2 Speakers at $398 (along with a VTF-2 MK5 Subwoofer at $689?) would put this system at near budget levels without any bundling discount from HSU. And yes HSU has a decent return policy along with a fabulous warranty policy. (Not that I've needed it.) The HB-1 MK2s are tonally balanced the same as the CCB-8s, and from the reviews I've read (no I haven't heard them) they work seamlessly with the CCB-8s.

I'd ask @shadyJ to add his current view on the VTF-2 MK5 Sub review he did some time ago. Is it still a good sub at $689 compared to the newer ones around? It this application (budget) is there a better solution available?

The above is what I'd suggest if trying to keep even close to a $2500 US budget. I hope this is helpful.

Good luck with whatever you choose @Grymlot . Make yourself Happy.