Advice: AVR vs Streamer & Amp

[Brian.M]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking to get some advice on what gear to purchase for my system. I have a 2.2 channel system that I use for Movies, TV, and Gaming.

I'm giving my AVR to a friend (Denon AVR-S950H) and looking to replace it with something new.

I'm unsure if I should just get a new AVR or something like a WiiM Ultra & an Amp (Nord Hypex NC252MP).

My question: What are the benefits of the AVR? I don't really understand the whole AVR down-sampling multichannel content to 2.1.

Since my use-case is Movies, TV, and Gaming - would an AVR be the better choice?

I was considering the Denon x3800h on sale ($1000) - but a friend told me since I only have 2 speakers I would be better of with the WiiM Ultra and a good amp.

My Equipment:
Speakers: Arendal 1723 THX Monitors
Subs: HSU VTF-15H MK2
AVR: Denon S950h

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking to get some advice on what gear to purchase for my system. I have a 2.2 channel system that I use for Movies, TV, and Gaming.

I'm giving my AVR to a friend (Denon AVR-S950H) and looking to replace it with something new.

I'm unsure if I should just get a new AVR or something like a WiiM Ultra & an Amp (Nord Hypex NC252MP).

My question: What are the benefits of the AVR? I don't really understand the whole AVR down-sampling multichannel content to 2.1.

Since my use-case is Movies, TV, and Gaming - would an AVR be the better choice?

I was considering the Denon x3800h on sale ($1000) - but a friend told me since I only have 2 speakers I would be better of with the WiiM Ultra and a good amp.

My Equipment:
Speakers: Arendal 1723 THX Monitors
Subs: HSU VTF-15H MK2
AVR: Denon S950h

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

It seems like an interesting unit. For your needs though it has one serious shortcoming. It only supports ARC and not eARC. ARC is often buggy and does not support a lossless connection. For that reason, I would not want it.

By the time you add the cost of a decent amp, you will be up to the cost of a receiver which is more versatile.

From the impedance curve your speakers are four ohm. Receivers tend not to like that if you push the volume hard. But they are nice speakers. Your optimal solution is an AVP and an external two channel power amp, or get a receiver with preouts to drive an external amp. I have a feeling those speakers would benefit from an amp that is very comfortable with four ohm loads.

Lastly, since you use your TV a lot, you might want to consider adding a center channel. Although having said that I have a 7.2.4 system and a 2.1 and 3.1 systems. On the 2.1 system I have to say that I don't really miss the center channel. On the 3.1 system there really is no significant difference if you use it 2.1 or 3.1. Dialog is fractionally more focused in in 3.1 but it is really splitting hairs. I suspect your speakers have good speech intelligibility in which case a center speaker will not bring much to the table. Far too many speakers have poor speech intelligibility and that also includes center channels.

I am astounded at how many speakers fall short of the mark, and have to wonder where their designers learned their craft.

 

[Brian.M]

It seems like an interesting unit. For your needs though it has one serious shortcoming. It only supports ARC and not eARC. ARC is often buggy and does not support a lossless connection. For that reason, I would not want it.

By the time you add the cost of a decent amp, you will be up to the cost of a receiver which is more versatile.

From the impedance curve your speakers are four ohm. Receivers tend not to like that if you push the volume hard. But they are nice speakers. Your optimal solution is an AVP and an external two channel power amp, or get a receiver with preouts to drive an external amp. I have a feeling those speakers would benefit from an amp that is very comfortable with four ohm loads.

Lastly, since you use your TV a lot, you might want to consider adding a center channel. Although having said that I have a 7.2.4 system and a 2.1 and 3.1 systems. On the 2.1 system I have to say that I don't really miss the center channel. On the 3.1 system there really is no significant difference if you use it 2.1 or 3.1. Dialog is fractionally more focused in in 3.1 but it is really splitting hairs. I suspect your speakers have good speech intelligibility in which case a center speaker will not bring much to the table. Far too many speakers have poor speech intelligibility and that also includes center channels.

I am astounded at how many speakers fall short of the mark, and have to wonder where their designers learned their craft.

Thanks for the reply! I didn't realize the Wiim Ultra only supports ARC. That's good to know.

If my budget is around $1000 - $1500, what gear would you recommend?

I'm also trying to understand the whole AVR down-sampling multichannel audio thing. I was told an AVR (like the Denon x3800h) is better for movies streaming off my Plex server.

The Movie files have DDP5.1, Atmos, and TrueHD 7.1, etc. Does the AVR handle these audio formats in a way that a streamer + amp cannot? Is that what down sampling multichannel audio is?

I've never understood how it works when the source data format is multi-channel but my speaker system is only 2.1

 

[Golfx]

Hi, you really do not need to understand downsampling to 2.2. An AVR will just do it for you.

You just do not hear sounds from the other channels because you do not have them anyway. The Denon setup program will take care of that for you.

Also, an AVR would work well, if in the future, you decide to add other channels/speakers (surrounds and center as TLS suggested). Especially, because you specify movies, tv and gaming—those all say AVR. Your friend is only looking at your two speakers not your future potential.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the reply! I didn't realize the Wiim Ultra only supports ARC. That's good to know.

If my budget is around $1000 - $1500, what gear would you recommend?

I'm also trying to understand the whole AVR down-sampling multichannel audio thing. I was told an AVR (like the Denon x3800h) is better for movies streaming off my Plex server.

The Movie files have DDP5.1, Atmos, and TrueHD 7.1, etc. Does the AVR handle these audio formats in a way that a streamer + amp cannot? Is that what down sampling multichannel audio is?

I've never understood how it works when the source data format is multi-channel but my speaker system is only 2.1

The streamer will not handle multichannel audio except to down mix it to two. if you plan on adding more channels then you need an AVR or AVP.

 

[Slave IV]

As others have stated in a way and I agree, the main feature of an AVR to me is the surround sound processing, which will help create a more immersive experience if you are willing to get more speakers to literally surround you. Movies, TV and games are the primary content that benefit most from this kind of setup. But more modes and speakers can also cause more complication and room for error so it’s up to what you really want. Well placed stereo speakers can potentially also give you an immersive experience but obviously won’t be the same as 5+ speakers all around you. I personally wouldn’t recommend a 3.x setup because I just don’t think it’s worth the trouble without going to at least 5.x and the center could become more of a headache if it doesn’t project dialogue as well as intended.
So simple answer, get an AVR if you plan to get more speakers and get something like an integrated amp or preamp and amp(s) and whatever it is, make sure it has the sub outs you need for your Hsu’s (I’m not familiar with what connections those have and you can probably work it out but it might be more ideal to optimize based on what options those have).

 

[Bobby Bass]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking to get some advice on what gear to purchase for my system. I have a 2.2 channel system that I use for Movies, TV, and Gaming.

I'm giving my AVR to a friend (Denon AVR-S950H) and looking to replace it with something new.

I'm unsure if I should just get a new AVR or something like a WiiM Ultra & an Amp (Nord Hypex NC252MP).

My question: What are the benefits of the AVR? I don't really understand the whole AVR down-sampling multichannel content to 2.1.

Since my use-case is Movies, TV, and Gaming - would an AVR be the better choice?

I was considering the Denon x3800h on sale ($1000) - but a friend told me since I only have 2 speakers I would be better of with the WiiM Ultra and a good amp.

My Equipment:
Speakers: Arendal 1723 THX Monitors
Subs: HSU VTF-15H MK2
AVR: Denon S950h

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

You list movies, TV and gaming as your top uses. I would go with an AVR as the others suggested. If music was your focus I would go with separates, a amp and streamer/DAC. that’s what I do with my systems devoted primarily to TV or music. You’re on a new musical journey. Enjoy it!

 

[Eppie]

An AVR offers more flexibility than most 2 channels integrated amps for about the same money. You have more input options and if you have a plex server, gaming system(s) and other video sources, the Wiim alone will not suffice. The Wiim is a good streamer for music, but for gaming and plex material I also think you're better off with an AVR. The X3800H is a good unit at that price. It has a full set of pre-amp outs and 4 subwoofer outputs, so it will handle your 2 subs and leave the option to add an external amp later if you feel the AVR can not drive your speakers to the volume levels you desire. It's nice to have the option to add a centre or surrounds later as well.

 

[Brian.M]

Thank you all for the replies, I really appreciate it!

One thing I failed to mention is that I don't plan to add more speakers. It just isn't practical for my space, so I'll be sticking to the 2.2 setup for the foreseeable future.

With that being the case would an AVR still be the best choice?

Any recommendations for an Amp and Streamer/DAC in the $1000 - $1500 range? Just to give me some other options to consider.

Do you guys think this Nord NC252 amp would be a good choice for my Arendal speakers?

 

[Golfx]

Ha, you seem to have your mind made up when you asked this question at first. Your friend really gave you the only advice you want to hear.

Sure a NORD amp would be a good amp. But why not get the NC502 instead. It has double the power for very little more. So what did you decide to use to serve as a preamp for this amp?

 

[Brian.M]

Ha, you seem to have your mind made up when you asked this question at first. Your friend really gave you the only advice you want to hear.

Sure a NORD amp would be a good amp. But why not get the NC502 instead. It has double the power for very little more. So what did you decide to use to serve as a preamp for this amp?

I definitely haven't made up my mind. I'm asking about amps and preamps because I don't really understand what I need.

I've always just went with an AVR because it's easy and convenient. If there is a better solution I would like to know. I'm not in any hurry to purchase something, so I figured I would ask around and get some recommendations from people who are much more knowledgeable than myself.

 

[Golfx]

You have a budget of 1500 or less. That will get you what most everyone recommended above—an AVR. Separate preamps and amps would cost much more for almost certain zero audible benefit. If you want to spend more, we can help you with that also.

BTW suround speakers do not have be large and can be much smaller wall mounted ones. Centers can usually be placed to fit in between your main L & R front speakers. All of these are an easy addition to an AVR at a later date.

You should think of an AVR as a preamp with more channels plus internal amps. And yes they are easier to setup than separates.

 

[Brian.M]

If you want to spend more, we can help you with that also.

Haha, I have no doubt!

So, which AVRs would you recommend in that price range then? I've seen the Denon x3800h on sale for under $1000 a few times recently. And I've heard good things about the Onkyo RZ30.

Would you say Dirac room correction is a big improvement over Audyssey?

 

[Golfx]

Denon 3800 has 4 separate “independent” sub woofer outputs. The onkyo has only two that are connected internally so in reality only “one” sub output. Which means you would not be able to use room EQ to match two separate sub volumes and timing. With the Denon you have audyssey for free and Dirac for an optional increase.

And ,no, the Dirac version (there are different versions) that comes with Onkyo is not better than the newer version of audyssey that comes with the Denon.

 

[Slave IV]

Going back to what you described in your original post, I don’t think you are going to get any significant improvement replacing the AVR you already have with the newer Denon or Onkyo you mentioned. I noticed your speakers are rated at 4 ohms and not the most sensitive so not really ideal for an AVR to push those but should be ok. If you liked the sound you got before, it’s probably going to be exactly the same with any of those AVRs so unless you just want to treat your friend, you might as well just keep what you have. What you will gain with those AVRs is the pre outs to be able to expand to better amps so if you must do anything, I’d either go with a preamp or the streamer with the Nord amp or even a combo like Wiim Amp Pro which will be way less and also give you an immediate upgrade in power feeding your speakers. @TLS Guy pretty much answered best in the first reply.

 

[Golfx]

Going back to what you described in your original post, I don’t think you are going to get any significant improvement replacing the AVR you already have with the newer Denon or Onkyo you mentioned. I noticed your speakers are rated at 4 ohms and not the most sensitive so not really ideal for an AVR to push those but should be ok. If you liked the sound you got before, it’s probably going to be exactly the same with any of those AVRs so unless you just want to treat your friend, you might as well just keep what you have. What you will gain with those AVRs is the pre outs to be able to expand to better amps so if you must do anything, I’d either go with a preamp or the streamer with the Nord amp or even a combo like Wiim Amp Pro which will be way less and also give you an immediate upgrade in power feeding your speakers. @TLS Guy pretty much answered best in the first reply.

Oh geez you just took him back to the beginning of his dilemma and what preamp is going to have 2 separate sub outs, room eq and upgradable codecs to handle movies, TV and Gaming In his price range.

 

[Slave IV]

Oh geez you just took him back to the beginning of his dilemma and what preamp is going to have 2 separate sub outs, room eq and upgradable codecs to handle movies, TV and Gaming In his price range.

Haha, wouldn’t be worthy madness without going full circle right?

The OP made it clear they don’t want more speakers so a lot of the processing isn’t going to matter much. To me, the simplest way to get a noticeable upgrade would be with something like the wiim amp pro. Under $400, modern connectivity and features and power that is more optimized than those AVRs to run the speakers they already own. If the separate streaming isn’t a concern I’d even say you could just get an amp like the ZA3 for around $100, plug the tv into it and as long as the tv has somewhat modern features, it will have plenty of streaming and content options already and you’re good to go. Why spend $1000+ for stuff you aren’t going to need and won’t improve your sound unless you get more stuff you don’t want when you can spend less than half and actually get a noticeable upgrade at the same time?

 

[Eppie]

My first concern would be connectivity. You mentioned movies, TV and gaming. What are your source components and will the Wiim Ultra provide the same connectivity you enjoy now? This is where AVRs have an advantage over streaming devices. Wiim does make good products for streaming audio if you are not a fan of Denon's HEOS.

What the 950H lacks is pre-amp outputs, otherwise all you would need is a decent amplifier. People often recommend AVRs because of the value they offer. It is not uncommon for an AVR to have specs that are just as good as separates for around the same money or less, so it's not unreasonable to choose an AVR and then add external amplification, unless you need the space savings.

The X3800H is a decent AVR with full pre-amp outs plus it has independent subwoofer outputs which is preferred to tame those room modes. It has 105W into 8 ohms vs 90W for the 950H, so a small increase in power but not that significant. If only using 2 channels you gain a little headroom because you aren't taxing the power supply as heavily as when driving all 7 channels.

Depending upon how loud you like to play movies, you may find the X3800H is enough to give you that little bit of extra headroom, and the independent sub outs could potentially improve the bass response depending upon how the room behaves. The 1723 THX Monitors have an incredible amount of dynamic range, so they can take advantage of extra power if you want to push them hard. I would see nothing wrong with adding a good 2-channel amp if you find that an AVR doesn't quite cut the mustard, as they say. You could try the X3800H as an upgrade and if you feel some extra power is still needed, add a good class-D amp when budget permits. There are several good options available.

 

[Trell]

The AVR/AVP advantage: HDCP.