Is my theater too large for substantial bass

[NBL]

My audio and HT setup has been banished to my recently finished basement. 1700+ sq feet with concrete floors and concrete walls. Layers of finishings on slab and walls but my ceiling is almost 9 feet, so there is 14,000+ Cubic ft. HT is not a dedicated area, it's mostly open. Pool table, gaming space, BR, bar, couches and then HT on one end. Everything I need for long periods of spousal exile. BUT, moving my Revel B15 and Paradigm setup there has severely reduced bass experience. Will adding an additional sub or two produce significant musical and HT bass or is the space just too large?

I've never set anything up in this large a space before. Hoping it's not a lost cause?

 

[TLS Guy]

My audio and HT setup has been banished to my recently finished basement. 1700+ sq feet with concrete floors and concrete walls. Layers of finishings on slab and walls but my ceiling is almost 9 feet, so there is 14,000+ Cubic ft. HT is not a dedicated area, it's mostly open. Pool table, gaming space, BR, bar, couches and then HT on one end. Everything I need for long periods of spousal exile. BUT, moving my Revel B15 and Paradigm setup there has severely reduced bass experience. Will adding an additional sub or two produce significant musical and HT bass or is the space just too large?

I've never set anything up in this large a space before. Hoping it's not a lost cause?

A plan of your room would really help.

I highly doubt it is a lost cause.

One problem you have is that those subs are not good subs, and in no way suitable for that room.

Despite flowery reviews in the loony press, hard data shows they are not very good. They have a peak in the 30 Hz range and then drop off below 30 Hz and appear to be high passed at 25 like a lot of sealed subs to stop the driver bottoming. The bottom line is that I would not be proud of that sub design and I would not let it see the light of day.

In room that big sealed subs are not going to cut it, unless they cost a fortune like Perlisten.

Good ported subs will couple much better to the room and do what you want. A couple of really good ported subs will probably be fine.

You did not state what your main speakers are except the brand. Now, what is perceived as bass is actually above and far above sub range. In that space you are going to require really potent main speakers and a lot of amp power.

It certainly is possible to get really good sound in a large space, you just have to engineer for it. In fact larger spaces are actually easier to deal with than small spaces.

My room is five and a half thousand cubic feet and I have no trouble getting a good accurate bass. It is above sub range that I have to give particular attention and it takes a lot of power with a total of 3,200 watts. I don't think that is actually ever called for, but I have no trouble achieving concert levels.

Down stairs we do have a large great room space, of living room, kitchen, dining room a passage way and stairway. I can fill that space with an in wall system of 1000 watts. The sub is a 10" driver in an in wall transmission line. It does not sound bass deficient and can fill the space reproducing large pipe organs.

So it is just a question of getting the design right and that means attention to more than just the subs.

 

[NBL]

Thank you for the detailed response. Basement is roughly a 50x38 space with some areas extending into and out of the rectangle. Furniture, gaming tables, bar, recessed fridge, futon, etc in the space, and a lot of elements on the walls.
If I get a copy of draw.io maybe I'll draft up an image.

The sub was used in the previous 16x20 space and I liked how it played music. If was also $500.
Mains are older Paradigm Monitor 90P. (Powered LF drivers) I didn't play a lot of music content that low (<25) and with HT I never had a chance play any real volume to experience missing low extension.
Moving to the basement changed all that.
I was considering, Rythmik FV18, the new HSU recently reviewed here, or something else. It's like wine or bourbon. People might agree what's good but not have the same favorite. Price is a factor, size and appearance are not.

Thanks again!

 

[ski2xblack]

Either way you slice it, the Revel sub is woefully inadequate for the job in your large room. You'll need far more capable subs and ideally several of them to do it justice. Even the specific subs you mention may be inadequate unless you get several.

It's true that the larger the venue, the more difficult/expensive deep bass becomes. A lot of the pro audio subs intended for larger venues don't even aim for the lowest octave. Some do, but they're huge and not pretty.

 

[Golfx]

Thank you for the detailed response. Basement is roughly a 50x38 space with some areas extending into and out of the rectangle. Furniture, gaming tables, bar, recessed fridge, futon, etc in the space, and a lot of elements on the walls.
If I get a copy of draw.io maybe I'll draft up an image.

The sub was used in the previous 16x20 space and I liked how it played music. If was also $500.
Mains are older Paradigm Monitor 90P. (Powered LF drivers) I didn't play a lot of music content that low (<25) and with HT I never had a chance play any real volume to experience missing low extension.
Moving to the basement changed all that.
I was considering, Rythmik FV18, the new HSU recently reviewed here, or something else. It's like wine or bourbon. People might agree what's good but not have the same favorite. Price is a factor, size and appearance are not.

Thanks again!

Like TLS guy said you need ported subs, likely big ones, especially on a concrete floor. $500 is not in the ball park with what you need. And sub measurements count more than “taste”.

You have a HUGE space for just one sub—the bigger the sub the better and two will help even more. Just look through James Larson’s sub reviews and think about two rather than just one. If you can afford it look at JTR ported subs.

 

[TLS Guy]

Like TLS guy said you need ported subs, likely big ones, especially on a concrete floor. $500 is not in the ball park with what you need. And sub measurements count more than “taste”.

You have a HUGE space for just one sub—the bigger the sub the better and two will help even more. Just look through James Larson’s sub reviews and think about two rather than just one. If you can afford it look at JTR ported subs.

Thank you for the detailed response. Basement is roughly a 50x38 space with some areas extending into and out of the rectangle. Furniture, gaming tables, bar, recessed fridge, futon, etc in the space, and a lot of elements on the walls.
If I get a copy of draw.io maybe I'll draft up an image.

The sub was used in the previous 16x20 space and I liked how it played music. If was also $500.
Mains are older Paradigm Monitor 90P. (Powered LF drivers) I didn't play a lot of music content that low (<25) and with HT I never had a chance play any real volume to experience missing low extension.
Moving to the basement changed all that.
I was considering, Rythmik FV18, the new HSU recently reviewed here, or something else. It's like wine or bourbon. People might agree what's good but not have the same favorite. Price is a factor, size and appearance are not.

Thanks again!

I think those new HSU subs would be a good start.

I have concerns about those Paradigm speakers with the mid crossed at 150 Hz. That is where sound is very much perceived as bass and a couple of small mids will not be adequate in that small space. I also note that burning out those mids has been a common occurrence giving rise to customer dissatisfaction. So in that large space you will be driving the speakers harder and this might be a big problem. So, I think replacing those has to go on the list.

 

[-Jim-]

Are you located in Ohio?

3 Hsu vtf3-mk5s for sale, $625 each

Maybe $1800 for the 3 of them?

 

[lovinthehd]

Other thoughts....is your goal to have even sound across the entire room or just in the seating area? Perhaps nearfield subs and/or tactile transducers could be a thought for a limited seating/listening area....

 

[shadyJ]

Other thoughts....is your goal to have even sound across the entire room or just in the seating area? Perhaps nearfield subs and/or tactile transducers could be a thought for a limited seating/listening area....

+1 this. You can overcome large spaces by just placing the subs near the listeing position. You don't need a gob of high-powered subs if you have freedom of placement. You can simply place the sub behind your listening position for a good level of thump. Even a modest sub should have a good amount of kick when its right next to you.

 

[NBL]

Great info. I totally agree that what I have is not suitable for the space.
"$500 is not in the ball park with what you need. And sub measurements count more than “taste”. "

I just meant that when it comes time to select a bigger tool, Rythmik, HSU, SVS, PSA (in my $$ range) actual selections might just come down to personal taste. Finding a sale or used deal helps to make the decision at this stage of my journey. I am not opposed to used pieces so long as CS and build quality are there. I wouldn't buy a used Klipsch RP-1600SW. Although considering new ones currently $899 w/ free S/H.

@jim, thank you for the offer. I am in PA. For now I'm looking at the improved performance of newer HSU models. Considering the VTF-TN1

I was hoping to experience musical bass throughout the basement and HT reproduction in just the movie space.
Think Horizontal rectangle, going left to right... Far left is the bar and sitting area. In the middle is pool table, chairs, gaming area. Far right sitting area with screen on far right wall.
When I get two subs I'll try placing them behind the movie sitting area and between the gaming space.

Is there affordable equipment to measure SPL & frequency so I can experiment with placement?

Cheers!

 

[NBL]

I am seeing reports of the RP1600 with amp issues. It's off the table. Don't judge me. I was purely looking at the test results.

 

[-Jim-]

Great info. I totally agree that what I have is not suitable for the space.
"$500 is not in the ball park with what you need. And sub measurements count more than “taste”. "

I just meant that when it comes time to select a bigger tool, Rythmik, HSU, SVS, PSA (in my $$ range) actual selections might just come down to personal taste. Finding a sale or used deal helps to make the decision at this stage of my journey. I am not opposed to used pieces so long as CS and build quality are there. I wouldn't buy a used Klipsch RP-1600SW. Although considering new ones currently $899 w/ free S/H.

@jim, thank you for the offer. I am in PA. For now I'm looking at the improved performance of newer HSU models. Considering the VTF-TN1

I was hoping to experience musical bass throughout the basement and HT reproduction in just the movie space.
Think Horizontal rectangle, going left to right... Far left is the bar and sitting area. In the middle is pool table, chairs, gaming area. Far right sitting area with screen on far right wall.
When I get two subs I'll try placing them behind the movie sitting area and between the gaming space.

Is there affordable equipment to measure SPL & frequency so I can experiment with placement?

Cheers!

I'm not the one listing those for sale (another member here is). I just thought if you are looking for a deal to fill your big room, those could do the job.

If I was going to buy a new Sub the HSU VTF-TN1 would top the list too. Please post back once you get whatever you buy set up, and tell us how it's working.

 

[NBL]

Thanks Jim, I followed the trail and posted to the seller.

Does HSU typically have any Fall/Holiday sales?

 

[ski2xblack]

Thanks Jim, I followed the trail and posted to the seller.

That's a smokin deal, and would be appropriate for your needs. You could get all three for less than the cost of 2 of the TN1's.

 

[-Jim-]

Thanks Jim, I followed the trail and posted to the seller.

Does HSU typically have ant Fall/Holiday sales?

Unfortunately HSU is not into "sales" as far as I can tell. When I bought my CCB-8s I thought they'd have deals on Black Friday but I never saw any. They are usually reviewed as good deals at their list prices, and a better value than most other competitors.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Is there affordable equipment to measure SPL & frequency so I can experiment with placement?

Sure, This Mic:

Dayton Audio UMM-6 USB Measurement Microphone

Dayton Audio UMM-6 USB Measurement MicrophoneThe Perfect Companion for Audio ProfessionalsThe Dayton Audio UMM-6 professional-quality USB measurement and recording microphone is designed to work with industry-standard third party recording and measurement software. The rugged construction and...

www.parts-express.com

and free software:

REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software

REW is free software for room acoustic measurement, loudspeaker measurement and audio device measurement and analysis

www.roomeqwizard.com

Assuming you have a laptop

 

[TLS Guy]

I am seeing reports of the RP1600 with App issues. It's off the table. Don't judge me. I was purely looking at the test results.

I agree I would avoid Klipsch. I would stick with the likes of HSU, SVS etc.

I think those new HSU subs would be a good start.

I have concerns about those Paradigm speakers with the mid crossed at 150 Hz. That is where sound is very much perceived as bass and a couple of small mids will not be adequate in that large space. I also note that burning out those mids has been a common occurrence giving rise to customer dissatisfaction. So in that large space you will be driving the speakers harder and this might be a big problem. So, I think replacing those has to go on the list.

 

[kini]

4 of these https://www.funkaudio.ca/store/p56/Ultra_-_LFE.html

Maybe 4 of something like these https://www.aia-cinema.com/products/subwoofers/the32-sub-pro-active-sealed.html

 

[TLS Guy]

4 of these https://www.funkaudio.ca/store/p56/Ultra_-_LFE.html

Maybe 4 of something like these https://www.aia-cinema.com/products/subwoofers/the32-sub-pro-active-sealed.html

Stop being obsessed with subwoofers. Subwoofers only reproduce a small fraction of the bass.

In this subwoofer range we obsess with, we forget about the rest of the bass spectrum which goes up to 400 Hz at least. And in fact the frequencies above sub range also contain the major power bands of the bass spectrum.

I am not in the habit of making that all too common mistake.

 

[isolar8001]

4 of these https://www.funkaudio.ca/store/p56/Ultra_-_LFE.html

Nothing like recommending 65, 000 dollars worth of subwoofers.
For all we know this guys house isn't worth that.