1 vs 2 subs

[lovinthehd]

I'll first experiment with the distance settings on the AVR, see how that works before I go moving around these subs again. I didn't realize those settings could make a significant impact. Maybe I'll put the right sub to the left of the R front speaker, instead of to the right where it's out in the hallway, all odd looking and experiment with distance settings to see how that affects the measurements.

You have an avr that can adjust for separate level and distance for each sub, or not?

 

[sakete]

You have an avr that can adjust for separate level and distance for each sub, or not?

I have a Denon X4800H, so I think so?

 

[sakete]

I would try the HSU on the left and stack the RSL's on the right and see what happens.
I run my system in this manner with a Speedwoofer 12S instead of an HSU....the RSL12S has a high pass filter to feed the 10's.
Don't know if your HSU has that.
My room isn't as challenging looking as yours though.

It’s not within my budget to keep both, so it’ll be either 1 Hsu or 2 RSLs

 

[lovinthehd]

I have a Denon X4800H, so I think so?

Thought I saw something along those lines, couldn't remember. That one can handle four independent subs for level/delay. When you said something about equidistant it made me wonder, tho.

 

[sakete]

I purchased a DLBC license and been messing around with that. I also placed my 2 RSL subs in a more symmetrical setup for aesthetic reasons as I just don’t like having that one sub all the way out in the hall way (also gets in the way of opening the basement door).

There is just this big null in the 60-70hz range that’ll be hard to eliminate. Also so far not that impressed by DLBC, I feel like I get similar results with Audyssey. I’m leaning towards requesting a refund for DLBC as I really don’t think it’s worth $800 (that’s the cost of another Hsu sub lol). Also I feel like the soundstage seems wider with Audyssey than DLBC.

I might try MultEQ-X for fine grain control over the Audyssey correction and will experiment a little bit with moving around the left sub which has more flexibility aesthetically.

I will also mess around with the Hsu sub one last time before I decide to return it.

Man, buying a sub has turned into a real rabbit hole haha.

 

[isolar8001]

I purchased a DLBC license and been messing around with that. I also placed my 2 RSL subs in a more symmetrical setup for aesthetic reasons as I just don’t like having that one sub all the way out in the hall way (also gets in the way of opening the basement door).

There is just this big null in the 60-70hz range that’ll be hard to eliminate. Also so far not that impressed by DLBC, I feel like I get similar results with Audyssey. I’m leaning towards requesting a refund for DLBC as I really don’t think it’s worth $800 (that’s the cost of another Hsu sub lol). Also I feel like the soundstage seems wider with Audyssey than DLBC.

I might try MultEQ-X for fine grain control over the Audyssey correction and will experiment a little bit with moving around the left sub which has more flexibility aesthetically.

I will also mess around with the Hsu sub one last time before I decide to return it.

Man, buying a sub has turned into a real rabbit hole haha.

Dirac gets very little love here on Audioholics.
I have it and have never used it....seems to be too persnickety from the experiences of others I've seen.

You could buy a Speedwoofer12S for what DLBC costs...that's just ridiculous for a little program.

 

[Trell]

Dirac gets very little love here on Audioholics.
I have it and have never used it....seems to be too persnickety from the experiences of others I've seen.

For me a big part of that is the price of Dirac, especially if you have more than one subwoofer (will be much cheaper in later August, according to @AcuDefTechGuy). Audyssey XT32 is pretty good and is included in the price for mid-level D/M AVR and above, so the price differential is quite big with perhaps just marginal improvements.

 

[DIBstangguy]

Just went to a two SW setup on my Marantz Cinema 50. Much more enjoyable tha na single sub setup. Fills the room and no more getting your attention drawn to the single subwoofer on the lows when watching Dune or Quiet Place or other movies when the lows overwhelm the stage. The sound now fills the room like it should. 5.2.4 is incredible. As for adding additional SW audio managing devices/software thats your call. I found I don't need anythign more than the two subs, and using the room correction on the Marantz. I verified distances and db levels for balance after the correction was complete, but that was all.

 

[sakete]

For me a big part of that is the price of Dirac, especially if you have more than one subwoofer (will be much cheaper in later August, according to @AcuDefTechGuy). Audyssey XT32 is pretty good and is included in the price for mid-level D/M AVR and above, so the price differential is quite big with perhaps just marginal improvements.

Yes it's really the cost. $800 is outrageous. Like it would need to sound like angels singing for $800, but of course it can't do any magic.

$200 for MultEQ-X is a much more reasonable cost to shell out for something that allows for additional tweaking.

Also in Dirac, when you play around with filters, curves, crossovers, it generates a predicted correction. When I then apply it, and verify in REW, reality doesn't come close to what Dirac "predicted". Still the same suck-outs I get with Audyssey corrections.

And with Audyssey there is also stuff like Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume. Especially like Dynamic EQ when listening at lower volumes.

 

[sakete]

Ok, after some uncorrected measurements of my subwoofers, both the 2 RSLs and the 1 Hsu, I'm sticking to the 2 RSLs and will return the Hsu.

I messed around with positioning the RSLs in the positions where it would still be aesthetically pleasing and not in the way (again, this is the main living room so I can't just place them anywhere for the sake of the best sound, it's a compromise), while providing the flattest measurement. In some cases I had to move my left sub an inch closer to a wall to get rid of a major null.

And then finally, I made corrections with MultEQ-X and with Dirac Live Bass Control. Full range measurements below (no smoothing applied so you can see the lower frequencies as well):

Audyssey Reference (High Frequency Roll-off, no added boosting anywhere, front R+L crossed at 150hz):

Audyssey Flat (no corrections above 250hz, tilt applied where it rises to +3dB by 50hz from higher frequencies):

Dirac Full Range (no low-end boost, front R+L crossed at 150hz):

Dirac 250hz curtain (no corrections above 250hz, no low-end boost, front R+L crossed at 150hz):

Measurement wise, Audyssey Reference gives the best result. There are some room modes that can't be corrected, probably only addressable with room treatments which I don't plan on doing in this place (it's just a rental for the next year or so). MultEQ-X is a great little tool that allows for some additional tweaking (though too bad it's only available for Windows and not on Mac, but I have both systems so not a huge deal in the end).

So, I will likely request a Dirac refund here soon.

Any other REW graphs I should post to show a comparison between these corrections?

Otherwise I'm done messing with this system and will not touch it again until I move to a different house.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Any other REW graphs I should post to show a comparison between these corrections?

Otherwise I'm done messing with this system and will not touch it again until I move to a different house.

One thing you can do is limit the window from 10-200hz. Full scale sweeps without smoothing don’t help too much since we’re not concerned with the whiskers above that point. It also looks like there’s still trouble in the XO range. The dip from 150 down to about 90 very wide. Were you able to try the distance hack? FWIW there’s a lot of posts on avs about it. I’ve used it to great effect.
Here’s my last sweep without house curve.

 

[sakete]

One thing you can do is limit the window from 10-200hz. Full scale sweeps without smoothing don’t help too much since we’re not concerned with the whiskers above that point. It also looks like there’s still trouble in the XO range. The dip from 150 down to about 90 very wide. Were you able to try the distance hack? FWIW there’s a lot of posts on avs about it. I’ve used it to great effect.
Here’s my last sweep without house curve.

Here it is with all the measurements in one graph, limited to 200hz. I started the sweep at 20hz, so not including anything below that.

I did mess with the distances initially, but I haven't done so yet since re-arranging the subs. I do believe the 150hz crossover overall gave the best results.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

i guess the next thing I’d do is raise the subwoofer trim a few db for a “house curve”and consume a bunch of content and see what you think. How does the system sound?

 

[sakete]

i guess the next thing I’d do is raise the subwoofer trim a few db for a “house curve”and consume a bunch of content and see what you think. How does the system sound?

Right now it sounds great. Already applied a 5db trim to Dynamic EQ as otherwise the bass doesn’t sound as balanced. It’s unfortunate about the dip between 90hz and 150hz but not sure how much that can be corrected. It appears to just be my listening space.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Right now it sounds great. Already applied a 5db trim to Dynamic EQ as otherwise the bass doesn’t sound as balanced. It’s unfortunate about the dip between 90hz and 150hz but not sure how much that can be corrected. It appears to just be my listening space.

It definitely is the listening space, and a reaction between the mains and subs. The reason the distance tweak works is because it has a similar effect to moving the physical subwoofers. It’s possible that it won’t help, but IME it should make that dip much better. I personally dislike Deq, because it also boosts the surround speakers and rear Atmos speakers. I also use a minidsp with audyssey for an actual house curve. But, if it sounds great to you, then it’s great.

 

[sakete]

It definitely is the listening space, and a reaction between the mains and subs. The reason the distance tweak works is because it has a similar effect to moving the physical subwoofers. It’s possible that it won’t help, but IME it should make that dip much better. I personally dislike Deq, because it also boosts the surround speakers and rear Atmos speakers. I also use a minidsp with audyssey for an actual house curve. But, if it sounds great to you, then it’s great.

I don’t have surround speakers, it’s just a 3.2 setup. Maybe I’ll mess around with the distance settings at some point, but I spent 4 hours last night moving around my subs in different configurations and testing Audyssey vs Dirac. Kinda done with it for now I’m still hearing those sweeps in my sleep