Quality vs price 2007 vs 2024? What happened?

8

80'shighfiguy

Enthusiast
Hello all, this is the last resort for a plausible explanation.

In 2010 Audioholics did a review on a few towers. One of them was the towers I own and were purchased in 2009 - debuted in 2007.
They are 4 way JBL ES 80 series. Paired with an integrated amp pushing 110 RMS@8ohm, 165@4ohms, source is redbook CD's. They are Great and sometimes Jaw dropping with Jazz, EDM, slow rock, classic rock and female vocals, their weakness is when the pace pics up on faster tracks where male vocals and instruments get clumped.

However; after auditioning speakers form the likes of SVS ultra towers/Polk Audio reserve/ paradigm Founder 100f/ wharfedale 4.4, Lintons, Aura 2 / dynaudio emit 50/evoke 30, JBL 82's / 698/3600 Hdi, Dali oberon 9, KLH model 3/5 and Passif 50 all of them being 2.5 to 3 way. None of them sounded better only a different sound signature.

I realized to better what I have, I would need to spend in the ball park of 7000 USD. I paid 1200 for both JBL towers in 2009. Specification white page included form manufacture. P.S I called JBL California and spoke to a manager about their line up, he said if I still have my 4 ways and if they work great to keep them. Hmmm?

How is this possible?
What happened?
Thank you!
 

Attachments

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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You simply like some good speakers you have already. Nothing wrong with that. You indeed could perhaps need to spend some significant money for something you like more....personally the JBL 4367 or M2 would do nicely but I just don't find them worth the expense at my age/hearing thing....

ps there are a lot of good speakers out there under $7k/pr, tho but maybe up to 15k would be a decent budget range for those forever speakers....
 
8

80'shighfiguy

Enthusiast
You simply like some good speakers you have already. Nothing wrong with that. You indeed could perhaps need to spend some significant money for something you like more....personally the JBL 4367 or M2 would do nicely but I just don't find them worth the expense at my age/hearing thing....

ps there are a lot of good speakers out there under $7k/pr, tho but maybe up to 15k would be a decent budget range for those forever speakers....
Thank you for your reply. Also, thank you for the recommendation - very expensive and way past my budget...wow 10.000 for each speaker! I may just have to keep looking. Best case senecio, I may find something as good but with a different sound signature. Thanks again.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thank you for your reply. Also, thank you for the recommendation - very expensive and way past my budget...wow 10.000 for each speaker! I may just have to keep looking. Best case senecio, I may find something as good but with a different sound signature. Thanks again.
Check out Philharmonic Audio perhaps. Too bad Salk closed down. Somewhat depends on your usage/spl needs.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hello all, this is the last resort for a plausible explanation.

In 2010 Audioholics did a review on a few towers. One of them was the towers I own and were purchased in 2009 - debuted in 2007.
They are 4 way JBL ES 80 series. Paired with an integrated amp pushing 110 RMS@8ohm, 165@4ohms, source is redbook CD's. They are Great and sometimes Jaw dropping with Jazz, EDM, slow rock, classic rock and female vocals, their weakness is when the pace pics up on faster tracks where male vocals and instruments get clumped.

However; after auditioning speakers form the likes of SVS ultra towers/Polk Audio reserve/ paradigm Founder 100f/ wharfedale 4.4, Lintons, Aura 2 / dynaudio emit 50/evoke 30, JBL 82's / 698/3600 Hdi, Dali oberon 9, KLH model 3/5 and Passif 50 all of them being 2.5 to 3 way. None of them sounded better only a different sound signature.

I realized to better what I have, I would need to spend in the ball park of 7000 USD. I paid 1200 for both JBL towers in 2009. Specification white page included form manufacture. P.S I called JBL California and spoke to a manager about their line up, he said if I still have my 4 ways and if they work great to keep them. Hmmm?

How is this possible?
What happened?
Thank you!
You have put your finger right on the problem with speakers.

When I visit dealers, which I don't do often, as I am a time waster as I have no intention of buying their speakers,

But you have this array of speakers and they switch from one to the other, and they all sound different.

So naughtily I ask them "which one is correct?"

Now I have never bought a speaker. I have built my own for seventy years now. I have to say that designing and developing a really good speaker is actually a steep climb and they can be long in genesis.

I would say that it took me most of my life to come up with consistent results. I do think though in my later years they have got far more consistent.

This is due to the hard work and research of others as well as my own. Software modelling has helped enormously as well as improved measuring techniques.

All this has increased cost. Top end drivers have risen in price over the years, but their performance has also increased.

So this is complex. Then you have to add deliberate errors as I think dreaded marketers have this idea of a brand or corporate sound.

To top it off, you can not entirely rely on speaker measurements with speakers like you can on amps for instance. If it measures badly it will sound bad, but if it measures well it won't necessarily be a good speaker.

The reason for that is that you can drive an amp to full power across the frequency spectrum. If you do that with a speaker you will blow it up.

So, when I design a speaker I am very much cognisant of where the power bands of music actually are. My beef with a lot of commercial designs is that I feel they get this wrong more often than not. So many speakers are woefully short of power in the major power bands, which actually is above the low bass. Many instruments require enormous resources across the midrange power bands. Then there is the organ that can put colossal power in any audio band it feels like.

So, there is an awful lot that goes into building a really good speaker. They are seemingly simple, but that ends up being the last thing about them.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Hello all, this is the last resort for a plausible explanation.

In 2010 Audioholics did a review on a few towers. One of them was the towers I own and were purchased in 2009 - debuted in 2007.
They are 4 way JBL ES 80 series. Paired with an integrated amp pushing 110 RMS@8ohm, 165@4ohms, source is redbook CD's. They are Great and sometimes Jaw dropping with Jazz, EDM, slow rock, classic rock and female vocals, their weakness is when the pace pics up on faster tracks where male vocals and instruments get clumped.

However; after auditioning speakers form the likes of SVS ultra towers/Polk Audio reserve/ paradigm Founder 100f/ wharfedale 4.4, Lintons, Aura 2 / dynaudio emit 50/evoke 30, JBL 82's / 698/3600 Hdi, Dali oberon 9, KLH model 3/5 and Passif 50 all of them being 2.5 to 3 way. None of them sounded better only a different sound signature.

I realized to better what I have, I would need to spend in the ball park of 7000 USD. I paid 1200 for both JBL towers in 2009. Specification white page included form manufacture. P.S I called JBL California and spoke to a manager about their line up, he said if I still have my 4 ways and if they work great to keep them. Hmmm?

How is this possible?
What happened?
Thank you!
JBL ES80s aren't bad speakers, but I doubt that they are as technically as high performing as many of the speakers you mentioned. I would guess what has happened is you have had a lot of time to dial them in your room and have acclimated to their sound.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
what happened you ask ?? LOL, have you looked at the price of darn near everything these days ?? !!
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
In the last 17 years there's been significant price increases in labor, lumber, shipping, speaker drivers, most crossover components, and even copper wire.

I do agree with @lovinthehd when he suggested Philharmonic Audio. That's a small speaker manufacturer that specializes in direct internet sales. That way they avoid the high markups due to the standard sales model of distributors & dealerships. In particular, I think you might like the BMR Tower Monitor at $4,400 per pair (before shipping), far less than the prices you mentioned in your original post.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
A number of speakers made by Philharmonic Audio have been reviewed by our own AH member, @shadyJ , aka James Larson. He likes them :).

BMR Tower

He also reviewed the closely related BMR HT Tower.
 
8

80'shighfiguy

Enthusiast
You have put your finger right on the problem with speakers.

When I visit dealers, which I don't do often, as I am a time waster as I have no intention of buying their speakers,

But you have this array of speakers and they switch from one to the other, and they all sound different.

So naughtily I ask them "which one is correct?"

Now I have never bought a speaker. I have built my own for seventy years now. I have to say that designing and developing a really good speaker is actually a steep climb and they can be long in genesis.

I would say that it took me most of my life to come up with consistent results. I do think though in my later years they have got far more consistent.

This is due to the hard work and research of others as well as my own. Software modelling has helped enormously as well as improved measuring techniques.

All this has increased cost. Top end drivers have risen in price over the years, but their performance has also increased.

So this is complex. Then you have to add deliberate errors as I think dreaded marketers have this idea of a brand or corporate sound.

To top it off, you can not entirely rely on speaker measurements with speakers like you can on amps for instance. If it measures badly it will sound bad, but if it measures well it won't necessarily be a good speaker.

The reason for that is that you can drive an amp to full power across the frequency spectrum. If you do that with a speaker you will blow it up.

So, when I design a speaker I am very much cognisant of where the power bands of music actually are. My beef with a lot of commercial designs is that I feel they get this wrong more often than not. So many speakers are woefully short of power in the major power bands, which actually is above the low bass. Many instruments require enormous resources across the midrange power bands. Then there is the organ that can put colossal power in any audio band it feels like.

So, there is an awful lot that goes into building a really good speaker. They are seemingly simple, but that ends up being the last thing about them.
I admire your discipline to make your own speakers. That is the goal one day. Thanks for sharing all that information.
 
8

80'shighfiguy

Enthusiast
what happened you ask ?? LOL, have you looked at the price of darn near everything these days ?? !!
I was in denial.....this is insane what's happening! that was a good laugh, thanks :)
 
8

80'shighfiguy

Enthusiast
JBL ES80s aren't bad speakers, but I doubt that they are as technically as high performing as many of the speakers you mentioned. I would guess what has happened is you have had a lot of time to dial them in your room and have acclimated to their sound.
I will say you sound about 99 percent correct. I have spent time dialing them in and when I got that "stereo image"and "soundstage" I had to celebrate that I was able to finaly set them up correctly and achieve that sound.. That has a lot to do with it. Thanks for the matter of fact, I suppose on a good note if I do get speakers that are relatively better, will at least sound better due to know how to finally set speakers up. Thanks.
 
8

80'shighfiguy

Enthusiast
In the last 17 years there's been significant price increases in labor, lumber, shipping, speaker drivers, most crossover components, and even copper wire.

I do agree with @lovinthehd when he suggested Philharmonic Audio. That's a small speaker manufacturer that specializes in direct internet sales. That way they avoid the high markups due to the standard sales model of distributors & dealerships. In particular, I think you might like the BMR Tower Monitor at $4,400 per pair (before shipping), far less than the prices you mentioned in your original post.
Thank you for that. I am looking them up as I finish responding. Sounds exciting. Did not know they were direct sales so now I am very interested. Thanks again for the links! Have a great day :)
 
8

80'shighfiguy

Enthusiast
Check out Philharmonic Audio perhaps. Too bad Salk closed down. Somewhat depends on your usage/spl needs.
wow, Just looked at the speakers on the website. Very very impressed. These very well may be my next speakers as I prefer them over aperion which is also direct. Thank you.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
wow, Just looked at the speakers on the website. Very very impressed. These very well may be my next speakers as I prefer them over aperion which is also direct. Thank you.
You won't go wrong with those. Dennis knows what live music actually sounds like. I don't think most speaker designers actually do.
 
8

80'shighfiguy

Enthusiast
You won't go wrong with those. Dennis knows what live music actually sounds like. I don't think most speaker designers actually do.
Thank you for that vote of confidence. They seem spectacular so far by what is describe on the web. Thank you so much!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I realized to better what I have, I would need to spend in the ball park of 7000 USD.

How is this possible?
Everyone thinks differently for sure - personal preferences.

Some people think you don’t need to spend more than $3K/pair for speakers that are a lot better than your current speakers.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Too bad Salk closed down.
Just saw that. Sad indeed. I *love* my Salks and they would have been my go-to for anything other than the HT. I won't be able to get matching speakers now.

I wish Jim the best though! Great guy.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Top end drivers have risen in price over the years, but their performance has also increased.
What are some of the ways their performance was increased and how was this accomplished?

Flatness? Dispersion? Efficiency? Something else?
 
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