Curious about restored amps.

[Squishman]

I have zero intention of having my Marantz 1060 recapped, etc. It is beyond fine. I love it the way it is. But I see similar amps (Pioneer, Marantz, etc.) that have been supposedly restored, whatever that might mean in most case, and they are asking $800 to 900 for them. I actually wouldn't sell mine for top dollar as it is. But wondering if the recapping, restoring, whatever, raises the value, or is an un restored amp that plays perfectly worth more? Sort of like a vintage Harley is worth more if all original?

 

[TLS Guy]

I have zero intention of having my Marantz 1060 recapped, etc. It is beyond fine. I love it the way it is. But I see similar amps (Pioneer, Marantz, etc.) that have been supposedly restored, whatever that might mean in most case, and they are asking $800 to 900 for them. I actually wouldn't sell mine for top dollar as it is. But wondering if the recapping, restoring, whatever, raises the value, or is an un restored amp that plays perfectly worth more? Sort of like a vintage Harley is worth more if all original?

I can tell you my approach and I think there are many approaches.

If the item seems to be working fine, then I check it out, by visual inspection and running basic tests. If there are problems I fix them. For instance a leaky or bulging cap will be dealt with.

If the item has a known issue that can be dealt with or prevented then I do that.

Some units have come my way non functional and then I fix the problem. I have had some incredible deals that way. For instance I bought my Thorens TD 125 Mk II non working for a song, and fixed it. So I probably gained at least $1000.00 on that deal.

Tape recorders are the biggest problem, as there is almost always mechanical and wear and tear issues that have to be dealt with. They also need routine maintenance.

It is best to get involved in units you have at least some familiarity with, like my Revox tape units and especially my Quad amplifiers tuners and preamps.

In the case of your Marantz unit, I would personally open it up and do a visual inspection and do routine tests. If it was OK, I would leave it well alone.

I think my rule is on the whole to only deal with what you have to. Some resoters meddle around and tear into units without good reason. Some well meaning individuals definitely do more harm than good.

 

[Squishman]

I can tell you my approach and I think there are many approaches.

If the item seems to be working fine, then I check it out, by visual inspection and running basic tests. If there are problems I fix them. For instance a leaky or bulging cap will be dealt with.

If the item has a known issue that can be dealt with or prevented then I do that.

Some units have come my way non functional and then I fix the problem. I have had some incredible deals that way. For instance I bought my Thorens TD 125 Mk II non working for a song, and fixed it. So I probably gained at least $1000.00 on that deal.

Tape recorders are the biggest problem, as there is almost always mechanical and wear and tear issues that have to be dealt with. They also need routine maintenance.

It is best to get involved in units you have at least some familiarity with, like my Revox tape units and especially my Quad amplifiers tuners and preamps.

In the case of your Marantz unit, I would personally open it up and do a visual inspection and do routine tests. If it was OK, I would leave it well alone.

I think my rule is on the whole to only deal with what you have to. Some resoters meddle around and tear into units without good reason. Some well meaning individuals definitely do more harm than good.

I wouldn't know how to do a whole lot of testing. But when I had the covers off, there were no bulging caps or any oxidation evident anywhere.
What I hope is that 20 years from now, it'll still be in fine shape, I'll give the balance and tone controls a twirl every so often to hopefully keep them up to snuff.

 

[MrBoat]

I replaced the caps in my Pioneer from 1976, but there was a lot of distortion at less than half volume and it sounded like crap. I had flogged the amp hard for years before that and some of the speakers were difficult loads for it. I started out by cleaning all the pots. This got rid of the static, but not the distortion. There was also in incredible lack of bass. I also found a delaminated spot in the board, bypassed that with wire point to point, and the distortion was still there. The distortion had it sounding like an old cheap transistor radio on AM and it was weak overall. Once I changed the caps, including the large power supply ones, it sounded very nice. The rail voltages were also off and would not hold their value past one hot/cold cycle.

The beginning. The one thing that made this easier for a novice electronics guy is the old unit was designed to be serviced as it is comprised as specific/obvious subassemblies, which also makes troubleshooting easier. Also, all the main wiring used wire wrap instead of solder. I purchased wire wrap tools and the correct wire for that process. I also have a service manual for this unit, and I took plenty of before photos.

The power light shows blue but it is actually orange. The stock one had burned out many years ago. Here I was setting the bias etc. Everything was looking good.

Success. It sounded wonderful again. Tone controls now had a much more obvious effect comparatively as well and the distortion is gone. I pushed it and let it rip for hours, trying out different speakers and sources and then put it into play for about 6 months.

I had been to electronics school and have a minor degree in it. While I have forgotten a lot of it, I could recall the basics enough to know where and what info to look for, and I have a complete soldering setup/tools, heat sink tools and what not and test equipment, including oscilloscope. I also built a dim-bulb tester and have built amp kits, crossover boards and repaired/restored electric motors for a number of years as a day job so this was not completely foreign to me.

For anyone else that has to ask in the first place, I recommend working on broken things that are no good to you anyway with nothing to lose by learning on it. First and foremost, learn the safety protocols and at least have a knack for learning and fixing things. My boss is an EE. If I needed to, I could have had him help me in the event something didn't work out. Thankfully, I didn't have to ask him.

I'm not to be restoring any classics from that era anymore. I have multiple eras of amps/electronics from the '70s on up. The one rebuild is their last chance. I use them sparingly. Truth be told, the modern stuff sounds as good, or better, with the biggest improvement being the absence of analog pots. I have class A, A/B and class D, the latter of which is the quietest at idle and I like how cool they run, which ends up being a better environment for the actual electronic components overall.

The 20 yr old Denon AVR I am currently using sounds worlds better than the Pioneer did at 20 years, being it's pots had already been acting up well before that point. Older gear is nice to look at, but from a performance/reliability factor it's not practical for 'my' performance needs. I now appreciate amps that are stable down to 4, or even 2Ohm loads and with very little noise and being able to hook up any speakers I have up to the same amp.

People give up on modern gear way sooner, IME, with all the upgraditus going on so there is plenty of it left on the used market with a lot of use left in it. The hoarders and price gougers haven't really moved into that arena yet so there are IMO, the best deals to be had there, with much less risk.

I don't like buying previously restored gear unless I know who restored it and how, and with all the gouging going on from there, they can stick that where the sun doesn't shine. Even "factory authorized" is to be suspect without a warranty and the ability to back it up.

 

[highfigh]

Some sites and forums are full of crap when it comes to equipment from the '70s-'80s. They write about it as if it was the finest ever manufactured, when it was actually run of the mill, mass production. Aside from someone wanting it and having the money to spend, there's no reason a Pioneer SX-1280 should sell for more than $1500, but they do. It's just not that good. It's certainly not rare.

If I don't know who restored it and don't know their qualifications, I would never spend high prices for this stuff- I know too many EEs and people who have serviced electronics as a job to bother with some random 'expert'.

That said, I know there are people out there who are qualified to do this, but I don't see much about qualifications, test equipment, etc. Just slapping a box full of new caps into a piece of equipment doesn't equal 'restored'.

OTOH, the high prices being paid are the reason I'll be selling some things soon- the Walkman I have is going for more than $500 and I have seen the case go for close to $150.

 

[highfigh]

People give up on modern gear way sooner, IME, with all the upgraditus going on so there is plenty of it left on the used market with a lot of use left in it. The hoarders and price gougers haven't really moved into that arena yet so there are IMO, the best deals to be had there, with much less risk.

WRT giving up on modern gear, have you tried to buy replacement parts, lately? They're not providing parts for a long time, as they did in the past. Now, we're lucky to find major parts after a few years, compared to some parts that are still available after 40, like the main gear for my Sony Walkman WM-DC2- I can still buy one easily, for about $30-$35. I called Sony about ten years ago and asked if they had anything for the integrated amp I was planning to sell, in case the parts had been sitting in a corner of a warehouse. I was told that they had sold everything to a company who was going to list them online, but she asked what I needed, in case the list showed them (it did). The amp was from the mid-'70s and this was around 2014.

One of my customers had a couple of dead TVs and their AVR stopped passing video- turns out that nothing from the HDMI board works, but the audio section and network card are fine. I can only find HDMI boards from stripped AVRs, nothing new. Even then, it would cost more than it's worth.

 

[MrBoat]

WRT giving up on modern gear, have you tried to buy replacement parts, lately? They're not providing parts for a long time, as they did in the past. Now, we're lucky to find major parts after a few years, compared to some parts that are still available after 40, like the main gear for my Sony Walkman WM-DC2- I can still buy one easily, for about $30-$35. I called Sony about ten years ago and asked if they had anything for the integrated amp I was planning to sell, in case the parts had been sitting in a corner of a warehouse. I was told that they had sold everything to a company who was going to list them online, but she asked what I needed, in case the list showed them (it did). The amp was from the mid-'70s and this was around 2014.

One of my customers had a couple of dead TVs and their AVR stopped passing video- turns out that nothing from the HDMI board works, but the audio section and network card are fine. I can only find HDMI boards from stripped AVRs, nothing new. Even then, it would cost more than it's worth.

I meant that people give up on perfectly good gear in keeping up with upgrades so there is plenty good on the used market. I know one guy who buys a new AVR every other year whether he needs it or not. Same man who gave me the used Denon just to get it out of his closet. Original box, and still looks brand new and I've had it since 2016. He used it two years and then mothballed it. Told me if it breaks, he'll give me another.

Found another perfect one just like it for $75 local and bought that one too. This one I am on now is almost 20 years old. Not a hint of noise from the speakers at idle.

 

[TLS Guy]

Some sites and forums are full of crap when it comes to equipment from the '70s-'80s. They write about it as if it was the finest ever manufactured, when it was actually run of the mill, mass production. Aside from someone wanting it and having the money to spend, there's no reason a Pioneer SX-1280 should sell for more than $1500, but they do. It's just not that good. It's certainly not rare.

If I don't know who restored it and don't know their qualifications, I would never spend high prices for this stuff- I know too many EEs and people who have serviced electronics as a job to bother with some random 'expert'.

That said, I know there are people out there who are qualified to do this, but I don't see much about qualifications, test equipment, etc. Just slapping a box full of new caps into a piece of equipment doesn't equal 'restored'.

OTOH, the high prices being paid are the reason I'll be selling some things soon- the Walkman I have is going for more than $500 and I have seen the case go for close to $150.

I don't have significant experience with those Far Eastern receivers. I seem to have got on OK without them. Not sure I could ever have lifted one of those Pioneers. I think they weight 60 lb.

 

[Squishman]

Seems to me a vintage receiver is more useful and practical than an older AVR considering how DSP changes fairly frequently. Except that an older AVR is fine for 2 channel of course. And then you have a subwoofer output. So there is that!

 

[highfigh]

I don't have significant experience with those Far Eastern receivers. I seem to have got on OK without them. Not sure I could ever have lifted one of those Pioneers. I think they weight 60 lb.

Their SX-1980 weighed 94 lb in the box. Oh, boy. I worked for a big Pioneer dealer so we got to work out AND be paid for it.

 

[MrBoat]

Some sites and forums are full of crap when it comes to equipment from the '70s-'80s. They write about it as if it was the finest ever manufactured, when it was actually run of the mill, mass production. Aside from someone wanting it and having the money to spend, there's no reason a Pioneer SX-1280 should sell for more than $1500, but they do. It's just not that good. It's certainly not rare.

If I don't know who restored it and don't know their qualifications, I would never spend high prices for this stuff- I know too many EEs and people who have serviced electronics as a job to bother with some random 'expert'.

That said, I know there are people out there who are qualified to do this, but I don't see much about qualifications, test equipment, etc. Just slapping a box full of new caps into a piece of equipment doesn't equal 'restored'.

OTOH, the high prices being paid are the reason I'll be selling some things soon- the Walkman I have is going for more than $500 and I have seen the case go for close to $150.

I have no notions of the mass produced stuff being exceptional but it did sound good for what it was/is. At the time, much lower distortion than what most consumers were used to while living on a diet of transistor radios, mono speaker in the dash of an auto with AM only sometimes, and other crap gear from Monkey Wards or radio shack. I restored those that I have, mostly for the nostalgia of it. I have a relatively freshly restored Adcom GFA-5500 as well but rarely use it.

I'm not willing to pay even close to collector/nostalgia prices for any of it. That says a lot because I typically like older stuff. This old Denon is more collectible to me now and is basically the new vintage. Poor thing gets no love but IMO is one of the best bargains for 2-channel. I can't think of another way to get this much stable power for the money. Perhaps it is impractical for the other channels that don't get used but that never really crosses my mind. I should probably stfu about it so the masses don't figure it out and push the prices way out of bargain land like they do everything else.

Every time I have started to shop for a new amp, as soon as I start looking for bass management, the price starting point moves to $1k for the most minimal and at that price it's doing good to make 100wpc/8Ohm. I end up comparing everything to this AVR and something has to be pretty high performing/expensive to best it and my shopping stops there. Then I listen to what I already have and realize there is no missing vintage warmth or analog fantasies to chase and I basically just resign to the fact that this thing would have to die first, and that there is no practical upgrades until it does.

 

[MrBoat]

Seems to me a vintage receiver is more useful and practical than an older AVR considering how DSP changes fairly frequently. Except that an older AVR is fine for 2 channel of course. And then you have a subwoofer output. So there is that!

That's just it. Vintage mass market receivers aren't better. I have a few of them. They run hotter than this AVR does and lord help them if you hook up some difficult to drive speakers. This is much of why I don't bother with them for everyday use. My main speakers are 6Ohm, some I have are 4Ohm. The AVR drives all of them without breaking a sweat and it's nice not to have to think about it anymore.

Most of the speakers that complete that mass market vintage ideology end up having foam surrounds, another thing I just can't be bothered with these days. I've restored my fair share of those as well.

 

[TLS Guy]

That's just it. Vintage mass market receivers aren't better. I have a few of them. They run hotter than this AVR does and lord help them if you hook up some difficult to drive speakers. This is much of why I don't bother with them for everyday use. My main speakers are 6Ohm, some I have are 4Ohm. The AVR drives all of them without breaking a sweat and it's nice not to have to think about it anymore.

Most of the speakers that complete that mass market vintage ideology end up having foam surrounds, another thing I just can't be bothered with these days. I've restored my fair share of those as well.

I think your comments are essentially on target. The only thing I would say, is that those units made before ICs, have a much better chance of being repaired if they have problems.

These Japanese units were absolutely not as good as other units, and initially made slow progress in the UK. Units from Quad, Leak, Armstrong, Rogers and Sugden for instance were significantly better. However, the Japanese brands dropped prices enough to make strong inroads.

Those Sugden/Rogers integrated amps proved very reliable, and I would bet 90% plus are still in daily use. My sisters has been in daily use for over 50 years.

 

[MrBoat]

I think your comments are essentially on target. The only thing I would say, is that those units made before ICs, have a much better chance of being repaired if they have problems.

These Japanese units were absolutely not as good as other units, and initially made slow progress in the UK. Units from Quad, Leak, Armstrong, Rogers and Sugden for instance were significantly better. However, the Japanese brands dropped prices enough to make strong inroads.

Those Sugden/Rogers integrated amps proved very reliable, and I would bet 90% plus are still in daily use. My sisters has been in daily use for over 50 years.

I agree. Just that anything really worth having beyond the mid-fi stuff though is treated like museum artifacts and priced accordingly. It's only really worth that to those who insist on having it. The old Pioneer is smartly built for servicing, even if that meant replacing an entire board. I'm just saying that there are low price, high value/performance options instead of the marketers directing otherwise for their shiny new. In my price bracket, all they think I am worthy of having is a 50 watt amp and inefficient bookshelf speakers. I can manipulate any notable AVR into high performing, 2-channel hi-fi for pennies on the buck, without the marketer inflicted compromises.

I have gotten 7 years of higher performing 2-channel hi-fi for $75 so far. I could do it again tomorrow and the next day. At this rate, I can even afford to happen across a lemon and still be ahead scrapping it to the landfill.

ETA: I got nearly 30 years of hard use out of that Pioneer. It started getting wonky at about the 20 yr mark, where I dare not touch the controls once set right. Definitely was value there.

 

[TLS Guy]

I agree. Just that anything really worth having beyond the mid-fi stuff though is treated like museum artifacts and priced accordingly. It's only really worth that to those who insist on having it. The old Pioneer is smartly built for servicing, even if that meant replacing an entire board. I'm just saying that there are low price, high value/performance options instead of the marketers directing otherwise for their shiny new. In my price bracket, all they think I am worthy of having is a 50 watt amp and inefficient bookshelf speakers. I can manipulate any notable AVR into high performing, 2-channel hi-fi for pennies on the buck, without the marketer inflicted compromises.

I have gotten 7 years of higher performing 2-channel hi-fi for $75 so far. I could do it again tomorrow and the next day. At this rate, I can even afford to happen across a lemon and still be ahead scrapping it to the landfill.

ETA: I got nearly 30 years of hard use out of that Pioneer. It started getting wonky at about the 20 yr mark, where I dare not touch the controls once set right. Definitely was value there.

I think we are on the same page with this. A lot of my equipment is fifty years old and some older that is in frequent use. I hazard a guess that I have spent less per year on equipment, than most on the forum by far. Going for quality and having a sixth sense for problem gear makes it all very economical.

 

[MrBoat]

I think we are on the same page with this. A lot of my equipment is fifty years old and some older that is in frequent use. I hazard a guess that I have spent less per year on equipment, than most on the forum by far. Going for quality and having a sixth sense for problem gear makes it all very economical.

I spend more on speakers, which I'd rather, and getting lucky on the power certainly helps there.

I really don't need to ever buy another amp, or anything else, for that matter. That is the upside with the marketers convincing people that their two year old equipment has been obsoleted by yet another, rather meaningless gimmick.