Help with Speaker and Subwoofer Placement in difficult room

[TLS Guy]

Is this any better than my first take? I followed dolbys diagram that I posted previously. This should make a 5.2.2 system. I could possibly make this a 5.2.4 but the rear atmos would have to be mounted about a foot lower than the front atmos due to my ductwork. Would that still work or do all the atmos speakers need to be at the same height? Also, whether it is a good decision or not, I think I've decided to not rotate the room and use the short wall. That window will restrict my ability to ever switch out my tv for a projector if I ever decided to go that route.

Like a lot of people you need to learn that less is more. Just forget Atmos. Actually that room is probably best served with a 3.2 system and 5.2 at the very most. I would just wire for 5.2 and actually just install 3.2 and see how you like it. I bet that will keep your family happy.

One thing I should mention, run ALL AV cables in conduit, yes the lot, including speaker cables.

 

[Eppie]

Is this any better than my first take? I followed dolbys diagram that I posted previously. This should make a 5.2.2 system. I could possibly make this a 5.2.4 but the rear atmos would have to be mounted about a foot lower than the front atmos due to my ductwork. Would that still work or do all the atmos speakers need to be at the same height? Also, whether it is a good decision or not, I think I've decided to not rotate the room and use the short wall. That window will restrict my ability to ever switch out my tv for a projector if I ever decided to go that route.

That works for me. If the yellow is the duct work, then no rear ATMOS is best. I would not mount them at different heights. You could go with middle and front ATMOS by installing a second set of ATMOS speakers in front of the seating area (refer to the Dolby specs). What I would do is at least run wire to the front ATMOS location so that you have the option to add them later. Wire is relatively cheap. Make sure you use the appropriate ULC fire rated wire for in-wall runs. 14 gauge is sufficient for those runs but I like to run 12.

Your speaker position is similar to what I did when I moved my surrounds from the ceiling and installed ATMOS speakers. I tried going with flat panel rear speakers but with the couch so close to the wall they made things worse, so I have removed the flat panels and now just use the side surrounds, which I plan to upgrade to something better (and install a proper shelf in the corner ). I have a 5.1.2 setup now with the option to add front height speakers later and a second sub.

The Monoprice THX speakers that TLS Guy linked to for the front 3 are good value for the money if you're on a tight budget. Don't go too cheap on the rear surrounds and get something comparable if you can't afford the THX line for the rears. They carry in-ceiling speakers as well if you want to go all Monoprice and some models have angled speakers if you want to aim them at the main listening position. The in-walls are on sale, so not a bad time to buy.

 

[c.demille]

For the front L&R you guys suggested the Monoprice THX-465IW. What are your thoughts on this Definitive Technology Speaker UIW RLS III vs the Monoprice? I can get a refurbished one for about 40% less than the Monoprice.

 

[Wardog555]

Is this any better than my first take? I followed dolbys diagram that I posted previously. This should make a 5.2.2 system. I could possibly make this a 5.2.4 but the rear atmos would have to be mounted about a foot lower than the front atmos due to my ductwork. Would that still work or do all the atmos speakers need to be at the same height? Also, whether it is a good decision or not, I think I've decided to not rotate the room and use the short wall. That window will restrict my ability to ever switch out my tv for a projector if I ever decided to go that route.

Much better. It's not a requirement to actually have the atmos in line with the fronts. It's all based on angles and the Dolby studio guidelines is the best one to follow.
45 to 55 is the range from ear level.

You could even do 4 atmos if you can have the same angles regardless of any height differences.

You could go with middle and front ATMOS by installing a second set of ATMOS speakers in front of the seating area (refer to the Dolby specs).

This option doesn't exist in the guidelines. The only option with top front and top middle are the options with top rear so 3 sets of atmos.

 

[Eppie]

Much better. It's not a requirement to actually have the atmos in line with the fronts. It's all based on angles and the Dolby studio guidelines is the best one to follow.
45 to 55 is the range from ear level.

You could even do 4 atmos if you can have the same angles regardless of any height differences.



This option doesn't exist in the guidelines. The only option with top front and top middle are the options with top rear so 3 sets of atmos.

Is that part of the Dolby spec? I assumed that the speaker assignment in the AVR would handle it. If you can assign ceiling speakers as top middle and top front within the AVR, then the AVR should be able to mix accordingly. They can't list every possible combination but on my X4800H the examples they give combine the top middle with either rear height and/or front height. The op would not likely use rear height speakers with the duct work where it is, but front heights could be used (noting that they need to be in-wall).

 

[Eppie]

For the front L&R you guys suggested the Monoprice THX-465IW. What are your thoughts on this Definitive Technology Speaker UIW RLS III vs the Monoprice? I can get a refurbished one for about 40% less than the Monoprice.

Retail price on the UIW RLS III is the same as the Monoprice THX-465IW. Problem is that it is very difficult to find measurements for in-wall speakers. They are rarely tested independently, so the RLS III is an unknown to me. To make that decision, I would base it on what centre speaker you intend to use. You want your front three to have the same timbre so that when dialogue pans from left to right the tonality remains the same. So I would try and go with the same brand across the front if possible.

Def Tech has a good reputation and the RLS III looks ok on paper so it could be a viable option. What centre speaker would you pair them with?

 

[c.demille]

how helpful would an aimable tweeter be since i'm installing in wall? I was close to pulling the trigger on the monoprice THX-365IW for L&R and possibly center, but then i saw the JBL Studio 2 55IW which has an aimable tweeter. They're both essentially the same price. I am also still considering the refurbished Definitive Tech UIW RLS III which even for refurbished is a little more money than the JBL or Monoprice.

 

[TLS Guy]

how helpful would an aimable tweeter be since i'm installing in wall? I was close to pulling the trigger on the monoprice THX-365IW for L&R and possibly center, but then i saw the JBL Studio 2 55IW which has an aimable tweeter. They're both essentially the same price. I am also still considering the refurbished Definitive Tech UIW RLS III which even for refurbished is a little more money than the JBL or Monoprice.

Not at all helpful and a sign the speakers dispersion pattern is suboptimal. My in wall system has good even dispersion throughout the room, by listening and measurements.

I think the monoprice is your best bet. I would definitely avoid Def Tech. Definitely not worth extra money, but less. Those Monoprice units use the mid/tweeter unit from Morel. That is an excellent and highly regarded unit. My in wall speakers use Morel woofers and a Morel mid in the center channel. Tweeters of the left and right are from Scanspeak and the center tweeter from Eaton.

The fact I can see the source of the mid/tweeter unit tells me that monoprice are not putting junk in those speakers. In fact I would rate the Monoprice speakers as an incredible value. At least from what I can tell. As you probably know I don't go speaker shopping, except for parts. So you could say: - What do I know?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

how helpful would an aimable tweeter be since i'm installing in wall? I was close to pulling the trigger on the monoprice THX-365IW for L&R and possibly center, but then i saw the JBL Studio 2 55IW which has an aimable tweeter. They're both essentially the same price. I am also still considering the refurbished Definitive Tech UIW RLS III which even for refurbished is a little more money than the JBL or Monoprice.

IMO aimable tweeters are worthless. I own the JBLs and they are very good speakers. But I would buy something with an angled baffle. I also own a set of those, RSL c34e’s. Fantastic speakers. Especially for the price.

 

[MrBoat]

Am I the only one that thinks in-wall speakers are unattractive compared to traditional? Perhaps it's from having been in the wall trades for 20 years, but I would want to hang pictures and paintings instead of speakers. Especially the furniture grade finishes and exotic treatments that are available now and some just exude class into an otherwise sterile and dull looking room. Before I resorted to that, I'd instead have a stow-able system and gladly wheel it into place for the few times I actually got to use it. Someone that would not allow me to put whatever sound system I wanted into my rightful, hard-earned space, certainly isn't going to allow me to play video games or anything else fun very often either so, I'd just throw in the towel and live it up on the side, as much as "my-way" as I could get.

What you need instead is, to build a closet somewhere to stash a real kit in. Once you get good with setting it up, it's pretty quick. I used to put all mine away when the carpets were cleaned or when the kids had parties and such. I could set up the whole works in 5 mins. With subs I can do it in 10 minutes. No more than it takes to grab a sandwich from upstairs.

 

[TLS Guy]

Am I the only one that thinks in-wall speakers are unattractive compared to traditional? Perhaps it's from having been in the wall trades for 20 years, but I would want to hang pictures and paintings instead of speakers. Especially the furniture grade finishes and exotic treatments that are available now and some just exude class into an otherwise sterile and dull looking room. Before I resorted to that, I'd instead have a stow-able system and gladly wheel it into place for the few times I actually got to use it. Someone that would not allow me to put whatever sound system I wanted into my rightful, hard-earned space, certainly isn't going to allow me to play video games or anything else fun very often either so, I'd just throw in the towel and live it up on the side, as much as "my-way" as I could get.

What you need instead is, to build a closet somewhere to stash a real kit in. Once you get good with setting it up, it's pretty quick. I used to put all mine away when the carpets were cleaned or when the kids had parties and such. I could set up the whole works in 5 mins. With subs I can do it in 10 minutes. No more than it takes to grab a sandwich from upstairs.

I don't entirely disagree with you.

However, the other and actually larger issue, is floor space, clutter and people walking into them

You can't really hide them. I know you can have fabric dyed to match the paint work, but in my view it doesn't.

We had this discussion in the design of ours. My eldest daughter is an architect and interior designer. The kitchen she did for us, I think is a masterpiece.

She thought, and I have come to agree, that the speaker fabric should match the black TV. I think she is absolutely right.

In wall systems though are hard to design, but I have found done right, they are capable of excellent sound. Usually these systems are in larger spaces which increases the challenge.

The space is large and opens up into the stairs to the upper level.

I certainly would not like to take the system up and down.

It is used for hours each day. It was built and designed at my wife's request, and she calls it her system. It is a compact 3.1 system that has HTPC, cable box, and two DVD players, one being universal to play PAL discs, and a Chromecast device. It is powered by 1000 watts, and the speakers can handle that, although their is reserve.

Now I have the system totally tweaked it sounds excellent with zero speech intelligibility issues. I certainly would not swap it for a soundbar!

 

[MrBoat]

I don't entirely disagree with you.

However, the other and actually larger issue, is floor space, clutter and people walking into them

You can't really hide them. I know you can have fabric dyed to match the paint work, but in my view it doesn't.

We had this discussion in the design of ours. My eldest daughter is an architect and interior designer. The kitchen she did for us, I think is a masterpiece.

She thought, and I have come to agree, that the speaker fabric should match the black TV. I think she is absolutely right.

In wall systems though are hard to design, but I have found done right, they are capable of excellent sound. Usually these systems are in larger spaces which increases the challenge.

I certainly would not like to take the system up and down.

It is used for hours each day. It was built and designed at my wife's request, and she calls it her system. It is a compact 3.1 system that has HTPC, cable box, and two DVD players, one being universal to play PAL discs, and a Chromecast device. It is powered by 1000 watts, and the speakers can handle that, although their is reserve.

Now I have the system totally tweaked it sounds excellent with zero speech intelligibility issues. I certainly would not swap it for a soundbar!

I would rather take it up and down than deal with otherwise great compromises. At one point, when my kids were babies and toddlers, the only place I could get my fix was out back in my tool shed, 30ft from the house. That was worlds better than listening to a system on eggshells in the home. I could set up my 3-way floor standers on my work bench and just stand between them and really scratch the itch. Commando style listening is underrated. I was glad to discover I could do such a thing without being left in a corner somewhere with a transistor radio.

Commando listening will never win any awards, but it has been a welcome diversion from audio starvation, or feeling like an outcast in my own home. I know this likely horrifies more educated and civilized people, but I was so happy to have something like this to do, even if it was born of desperation. Funnier part of it being, when the kids went to sleep, my ex-wife would end up out there with me at times after she discovered I was enjoying myself a bit too much, and she even put a baby monitor out there so she could do so without much worry.

Yeah, I would definitely do a break down system than a restricted one. I kind of feel like I managed to win, even during some of the most inconvenient times.

Ever noticed the traffic patterns in a wall-to-wall carpet? Nobody really goes where speakers can fit. In one house, I would lay them on their sides obscured by the sofas with the drivers facing the walls so the kids couldn't get at them. Sometimes I would end up with a weekend to myself here and there when her and kids used to go visit relatives while work kept me in town. I could set up in minutes and rock out for hours. Was certainly much more convenient than going to a live show, or even out to eat, for that matter. It's not for everyone, but perhaps it may inspire an option for those who may just have no other way, or are in a rental that they can't cut holes in the walls at.

I could stand and listen to my speakers on the bench for hours on end. Eventually I put a tall bar chair out there. Convenience is a weird thing at times, where someone might see such an effort as an inconvenience or as a chore, yet will go to a gym and lift weights, or some other work that isn't much different. As a single dad for a number of years, keeping up with my kids laundry and dinner was the real chores. Moving my speakers around seemed so trite, comparatively.

This is where notions of my ghetto tabletop systems that I set up and post here were born. You would be surprised how many people actually sit down at one of those and really get into it. They never considered it as a possibility. But some little near field system like this can stow in a 20" x 20" x 12" cardboard box which is no more difficult than digging out the family photo albums.

There's also an 8" subwoofer half under the end of the table out of site. 5 minutes and I can have a session with a pair of Jeff Bagby designed Continuums. Sometimes, all it takes is a spell of hopelessly doing without and remembering where one came from to find fortune in such a small amount of effort.

How about this one. A CD player, tiny class D amp and preamp, a makeshift stand, anywhere there is a wall outlet. These are treasures worth setting up where and when one can.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would rather take it up and down than deal with otherwise great compromises. At one point, when my kids were babies and toddlers, the only place I could get my fix was out back in my tool shed, 30ft from the house. That was worlds better than listening to a system on eggshells in the home. I could set up my 3-way floor standers on my work bench and just stand between them and really scratch the itch. Commando style listening is underrated. I was glad to discover I could do such a thing without being left in a corner somewhere with a transistor radio.

Commando listening will never win any awards, but it has been a welcome diversion from audio starvation, or feeling like an outcast in my own home. I know this likely horrifies more educated and civilized people, but I was so happy to have something like this to do, even if it was born of desperation. Funnier part of it being, when the kids went to sleep, my ex-wife would end up out there with me at times after she discovered I was enjoying myself a bit too much, and she even put a baby monitor out there so she could do so without much worry.

Yeah, I would definitely do a break down system than a restricted one. I kind of feel like I managed to win, even during some of the most inconvenient times.

Ever noticed the traffic patterns in a wall-to-wall carpet? Nobody really goes where speakers can fit. In one house, I would lay them on their sides obscured by the sofas with the drivers facing the walls so the kids couldn't get at them. Sometimes I would end up with a weekend to myself here and there when her and kids used to go visit relatives while work kept me in town. I could set up in minutes and rock out for hours. Was certainly much more convenient than going to a live show, or even out to eat, for that matter. It's not for everyone, but perhaps it may inspire an option for those who may just have no other way, or are in a rental that they can't cut holes in the walls at.

I could stand and listen to my speakers on the bench for hours on end. Eventually I put a tall bar chair out there. Convenience is a weird thing at times, where someone might see such an effort as an inconvenience or as a chore, yet will go to a gym and lift weights, or some other work that isn't much different. As a single dad for a number of years, keeping up with my kids laundry and dinner was the real chores. Moving my speakers around seemed so trite, comparatively.

This is where notions of my ghetto tabletop systems that I set up and post here were born. You would be surprised how many people actually sit down at one of those and really get into it. They never considered it as a possibility. But some little near field system like this can stow in a 20" x 20" x 12" cardboard box which is no more difficult than digging out the family photo albums.

There's also an 8" subwoofer half under the end of the table out of site. 5 minutes and I can have a session with a pair of Jeff Bagby designed Continuums. Sometimes, all it takes is a spell of hopelessly doing without and remembering where one came from to find fortune in such a small amount of effort.

How about this one. A CD player, tiny class D amp and preamp, a makeshift stand, anywhere there is a wall outlet. These are treasures worth setting up where and when one can.

I can see where you are coming form. However, it is not the most convenient of plans.

My wife and I prefer the total design approach and the built in finished look.

In our last three homes no wiring has been visible in our systems.

So I have come to approach audio, and now AV design, as an integrated design of the room design, decor and of course function.

I am a great fan of the architect, the late Buckmeister Fuller. He espoused the concept of total integrated design. What he called the "Dymaxion" approach. He has had a great influence on how I approach AV design and installation.

So I approach the system the room and its total architecture as a single continuous entity.

I do believe that this creates the most optimal results in all facets.

This is really no different to how pipe organ builders approach a project. They guided by, and led, by the architecture and acoustics of the room. I have to say organ builders have also had a significant influence on my approach.

 

[isolar8001]

Am I the only one that thinks in-wall speakers are unattractive compared to traditional? Perhaps it's from having been in the wall trades for 20 years, but I would want to hang pictures and paintings instead of speakers. Especially the furniture grade finishes and exotic treatments that are available now and some just exude class into an otherwise sterile and dull looking room. Before I resorted to that, I'd instead have a stow-able system and gladly wheel it into place for the few times I actually got to use it. Someone that would not allow me to put whatever sound system I wanted into my rightful, hard-earned space, certainly isn't going to allow me to play video games or anything else fun very often either so, I'd just throw in the towel and live it up on the side, as much as "my-way" as I could get.

What you need instead is, to build a closet somewhere to stash a real kit in. Once you get good with setting it up, it's pretty quick. I used to put all mine away when the carpets were cleaned or when the kids had parties and such. I could set up the whole works in 5 mins. With subs I can do it in 10 minutes. No more than it takes to grab a sandwich from upstairs.

I think there is a definite psychological factor in this hobby.
Just seeing all the equipment in its glory...bulky and imposing. Speakers and components.


Hiding it all takes that factor away, and some miss it. I like seeing everything, but fully respect the hidden approach also.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I think there is a definite psychological factor in this hobby.
Just seeing all the equipment in its glory...bulky and imposing. Speakers and components.


Hiding it all takes that factor away, and some miss it. I like seeing everything, but fully respect the hidden approach also.

I like both concepts too, although in my own house, I prefer to see it all, to my wife’s chagrin of course. But hey, I pay the mortgage too, so I still get a say!

 

[TLS Guy]

I think there is a definite psychological factor in this hobby.
Just seeing all the equipment in its glory...bulky and imposing. Speakers and components.


Hiding it all takes that factor away, and some miss it. I like seeing everything, but fully respect the hidden approach also.

You still see the equipment, it just becomes part of the room.

 

[isolar8001]

You still see the equipment, it just becomes part of the room.

I call that the hidden approach...I know its not totally hidden.

My first father in law had that kind of setup going in the early 70's until he died around 2007.....just the faces of the equipment shown in an island that was in the middle of the room.
Mostly Knight and Heathkit pieces, later he went nuts for Yamaha.

His speakers were all hidden in the wall, behind black panels with a million holes in a room that was paneled with real wood, top to bottom and ceiling.
Mostly Electro-Voice horns and EV woofers.
Those horns still give me nightmares...so harsh, but he loved them.

 

[Eppie]

how helpful would an aimable tweeter be since i'm installing in wall? I was close to pulling the trigger on the monoprice THX-365IW for L&R and possibly center, but then i saw the JBL Studio 2 55IW which has an aimable tweeter. They're both essentially the same price. I am also still considering the refurbished Definitive Tech UIW RLS III which even for refurbished is a little more money than the JBL or Monoprice.

Aimable tweeters seems like a compromise. A speaker is designed to have a certain dispersion patter. When you adjust the tweeter angle you change that pattern. I think William is correct in that something with an angled baffle makes more sense as it is designed to work that way.

 

[MrBoat]

I can see where you are coming form. However, it is not the most convenient of plans.

My wife and I prefer the total design approach and the built in finished look.

In our last three homes no wiring has been visible in our systems.

So I have come to approach audio, and now AV design, as an integrated design of the room design, decor and of course function.

I am a great fan of the architect, the late Buckmeister Fuller. He espoused the concept of total integrated design. What he called the "Dymaxion" approach. He has had a great influence on how I approach AV design and installation.

So I approach the system the room and its total architecture as a single continuous entity.

I do believe that this creates the most optimal results in all facets.

This is really no different to how pipe organ builders approach a project. They guided by, and led, by the architecture and acoustics of the room. I have to say organ builders have also had a significant influence on my approach.

I grew up with portable audio and home movies. Remember portable record players and roll up movie screens and portable projectors? My day job is pretty physical too, so I am always bringing tools out and putting them away and moving large projects around and on/off my bench at work. Moving speakers in and out is pretty light work to me and in the grand scheme of things, pretty convenient from where I come from.

I have a closet just for all my amps and (6 of the 9 pairs) speakers. I'll never move past 2.1 systems so wiring/setup isn't that complicated. Hanging around this forum is what often inspires me to set up one of these commando rigs. Especially if no company is due.

The idea that such high quality music can come from a box in our homes is pretty convenient in and of itself. I reckon it's a matter of perspective or to how spoiled we can be in these modern times. I am just thankful it's so easily available at all.