Help with Speaker and Subwoofer Placement in difficult room

[c.demille]

I am new to this site and have been scouring the forum pages for several days and have learned a lot. I am just starting the process of building a home theater area that is part of a large multi-use room. I have done a fair amount of research on speaker placement and have come up with my best stab at what my layout should look like, but I'm having difficulty with two specific speaker placements, the subwoofers and the main surrounds. I am attaching a drawing of my proposed layout.

Here are my restrictions and assumptions:
1. I am not looking for a serious dedicated theater room configuration and understand that my layout is not ideal
2. This is a basement room with 8' tall ceilings with the exception of some overhead furnace ducting. The walls are already framed in with 2x4's with concrete walls behind (1" space between).
3. No sheetrock yet
4. All speakers, including sub must be in wall or in ceiling. Yes, Yes, I know that this is not ideal, but the wife has dictated this, absolutely no visible speakers, (no under couch either)
5. I have already purchased my subwoofers - two Paradigm RVC-12SQ subs with a X-850 amplifier. I picked them up at a significant discount so I had to pull the trigger early. I do not have backer boxes.
6. I will use this area for watching movies, playing video games, and sports. The other side of the room is for ping pong, pool table, foosball, etc. Carpet flooring will be used on entire room.
7. I understand that the main surrounds should go in the wall at ear level, but I have a window on one side, and an open room on the other side. I am looking to use Monoprice Alpha Ceiling speakers that can angle towards the seating area. (monoprice 13687 dual 5.35" surround vari-angled)
8. I used up most of my budget on the subwoofers so I am looking to use monoprice for most of my surrounds.
9. I can't place a subwoofer in the corner as there are plumbing pipes there.
10. I know that subwoofer placement should be done through trial and error or testing, but that is not an option. I just need to try my best up front and i'll live with it. Its not a dedicated theater.
11. I haven't shown the center channel speaker on my diagram but i will install one below the tv (in wall)
12. I am trying to keep my theater area about 20' wide. I could possibly go a little wider, but I don't see the need as my seating area would probably be much smaller.

Here are my questions:
1. Which sub placement might work best? I have color coded a few options I came up with. Option 1 would have to go 1 stud bay inside each L/R speaker. Option 2 would be to put the subs in the corners, which I have heard is best, but they would be facing sideways from the viewing area. Option 3 would be to move the one sub over to the small corner if it would reflect better. However it would be further outside the listening area. Other options to consider? No, I do not want to sell my subs and build an infinite baffle and No, I cannot use a traditional sub, haha.
2. Am I ok to do my main surrounds in the ceiling as shown? I just don't know what else to do. I considered doing atmos speakers, but with putting the main surrounds in the ceiling it seems to kill that option. I have also considered using a nicer speaker such as a factory refurbished Definitive Technology UIW RCS III for the main surrounds (factory refurbished helps with budget constraints). According to the calculators I have used, the main surrounds should be about 14'-5" from the screen, but my overhead ducting requires me to move them a little closer.

Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[TLS Guy]

I am new to this site and have been scouring the forum pages for several days and have learned a lot. I am just starting the process of building a home theater area that is part of a large multi-use room. I have done a fair amount of research on speaker placement and have come up with my best stab at what my layout should look like, but I'm having difficulty with two specific speaker placements, the subwoofers and the main surrounds. I am attaching a drawing of my proposed layout.

Here are my restrictions and assumptions:
1. I am not looking for a serious dedicated theater room configuration and understand that my layout is not ideal
2. This is a basement room with 8' tall ceilings with the exception of some overhead furnace ducting. The walls are already framed in with 2x4's with concrete walls behind (1" space between).
3. No sheetrock yet
4. All speakers, including sub must be in wall or in ceiling. Yes, Yes, I know that this is not ideal, but the wife has dictated this, absolutely no visible speakers, (no under couch either)
5. I have already purchased my subwoofers - two Paradigm RVC-12SQ subs with a X-850 amplifier. I picked them up at a significant discount so I had to pull the trigger early. I do not have backer boxes.
6. I will use this area for watching movies, playing video games, and sports. The other side of the room is for ping pong, pool table, foosball, etc. Carpet flooring will be used on entire room.
7. I understand that the main surrounds should go in the wall at ear level, but I have a window on one side, and an open room on the other side. I am looking to use Monoprice Alpha Ceiling speakers that can angle towards the seating area. (monoprice 13687 dual 5.35" surround vari-angled)
8. I used up most of my budget on the subwoofers so I am looking to use monoprice for most of my surrounds.
9. I can't place a subwoofer in the corner as there are plumbing pipes there.
10. I know that subwoofer placement should be done through trial and error or testing, but that is not an option. I just need to try my best up front and i'll live with it. Its not a dedicated theater.
11. I haven't shown the center channel speaker on my diagram but i will install one below the tv (in wall)
12. I am trying to keep my theater area about 20' wide. I could possibly go a little wider, but I don't see the need as my seating area would probably be much smaller.

Here are my questions:
1. Which sub placement might work best? I have color coded a few options I came up with. Option 1 would have to go 1 stud bay inside each L/R speaker. Option 2 would be to put the subs in the corners, which I have heard is best, but they would be facing sideways from the viewing area. Option 3 would be to move the one sub over to the small corner if it would reflect better. However it would be further outside the listening area. Other options to consider? No, I do not want to sell my subs and build an infinite baffle and No, I cannot use a traditional sub, haha.
2. Am I ok to do my main surrounds in the ceiling as shown? I just don't know what else to do. I considered doing atmos speakers, but with putting the main surrounds in the ceiling it seems to kill that option. I have also considered using a nicer speaker such as a factory refurbished Definitive Technology UIW RCS III for the main surrounds (factory refurbished helps with budget constraints). According to the calculators I have used, the main surrounds should be about 14'-5" from the screen, but my overhead ducting requires me to move them a little closer.

Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

The first issue is that you need the back boxes. That is not optional as stated by Paradigm. That is a tuned ported system and will NOT work without the back boxes which Paradigm state are required. Not only will the subs not work without the back boxes, but if you drive those subs without them, you will quickly destroy them from over excursion, and void the warranty. It is quite an ingenious design. I have to stress that the back boxes are NOT optional, but absolutely essential for that design to work.

The next issue, I don't see how you avoid is that the set up is across the short axis of the room and not the long axis, and I don't see how you avoid that.

 

[c.demille]

The subs do not require a back box. I have verified this and thoroughly read the manual that comes with the subs. The manual also gives steps for wall cavity prep for no box. The amp actually has a switch for no backer box or with backer box and the ports come closed unless you use the box. The website also states they are not necessary. Any thoughts on best placement?

 

[TLS Guy]

The subs do not require a back box. I have verified this and thoroughly read the manual that comes with the subs. The manual also gives steps for wall cavity prep for no box. The amp actually has a switch for no backer box or with backer box and the ports come closed unless you use the box. The website also states they are not necessary. Any thoughts on best placement?

They will work a lot better with the back box. They will not really be subs without them. The switch on the amp will be a power limiter to prevent damage. That is something the engineers were forced to do by the marketers. That unit will NOT work properly without the back box. I don't think the position is critical, but the back box is.

 

[Wardog555]

Do 5.1.2 dolby atmos. The surrounds will be wider than those proposed locations. Approximately 110-120 degrees from center.

Read through these and you will understand why under no circumstances any 5 or 7.x layer speakers comes near the celing.

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

Salesforce

dolby.my.salesforce.com

Take note of this. Do not allow your wife under any circumstances to force you into doing something that will kill the home theater potential.

 

[Eppie]

I would place the subs below your mains (option 1) to keep the installation simple. If you need to cross them higher to match your mains you will have less worries about localization. Maybe option 3, but keep in mind what location will be less likely to be blocked by furniture or other items.

That open area to the games room limits what you can do. While the left surround could go below the window, you have no proper place for the right. I have used in-ceiling surrounds in the past and it is not ideal but better than no surrounds in my view (some will argue not to use surrounds at all in your situation and just go 3.1). If you have to go in-ceiling on the right, then you need symmetrical placement on the left. You are correct in that if you go with in-ceiling surrounds, forget about ATMOS. For a proper ATMOS setup you need to have the bed layer at ear level. Having the surrounds that angle to the listening position will help.

The other option I see is moving the TV to the short wall. Is there enough room next to the window? If this is a basement and the window is high, you should have room to install the main left speaker below the window. That would allow you to install the L+R surrounds in-wall at ear level (slightly behind the main listening position). You could skip the rear speakers. With a proper 5.2 layout, you could then add 4 ATMOS speakers in-ceiling for 5.2.4.

 

[c.demille]

Great comments and feedback Eppie. Thank you. I also considered turning the viewing area to the other wall. My windows are quite large and are probably only about 3 feet up from the floor, but i could possibly put the left main speaker a little wide on the other side of the window in the corner. If i center the tv on the wall it overlaps the window as well, so i would have to shift the tv right. My other concern with that direction is if I end up with a larger sectional couch at some point it wouldn't fit as well. It would definitely solve my surround speaker issue though.

 

[shadyJ]

The subs do not require a back box. I have verified this and thoroughly read the manual that comes with the subs. The manual also gives steps for wall cavity prep for no box. The amp actually has a switch for no backer box or with backer box and the ports come closed unless you use the box. The website also states they are not necessary. Any thoughts on best placement?

This is weird. Not using a back box turns them into an infinite baffle system. The requirements and performance of infinite baffle versus sealed are very different. Either one of those modes is badly compromised or they both are. The fact that it's advertised with a back box being optional raises a significant red flag for me.

 

[c.demille]

This is weird. Not using a back box turns them into an infinite baffle system. The requirements and performance of infinite baffle versus sealed are very different. Either one of those modes is badly compromised or they both are. The fact that it's advertised with a back box being optional raises a significant red flag for me.

I went ahead and ordered back boxes today for good measure. I was able to find a good price finally. I had a hard time paying over $1000 msrp on two wood boxes.

 

[TLS Guy]

This is weird. Not using a back box turns them into an infinite baffle system. The requirements and performance of infinite baffle versus sealed are very different. Either one of those modes is badly compromised or they both are. The fact that it's advertised with a back box being optional raises a significant red flag for me.

We are absolutely right. There has been a deliberate and unethical attempt to mislead.

This is what they actually say.

REQUIRED BACKBOX (SOLD SEPARATELY)

bx-12sq (optional)

It is only optional if you make your own back box! In the fine print they admit is can not work properly without the back box. To you and I, experienced in these matters can see it obviously can't.

The switch is to change the impedance for different amps. My guess is that this connects the drivers either in series or parallel. There is really nothing else it could do.

Honestly the presentation of this subwoofer is a disgrace and actually unethical.

Years ago, I did a couple of experiments with compressive woofers like that. They were not successful and I abandoned that line of research. I suspect the approach is valid, but that there were no really suitable drivers.

These drivers are made for the purpose. The specifications are totally inadequate and loaded with marketer speak. An FR is quoted, but there are no roll off limits. The FR graph is clearly not measured and drawn by a marketer and NOT an engineer. So the specs are meaningless.

So I have no idea whether this is a valid design or not. It is presented in a way that could be total fakery, but I just can't tell. I know one thing they would not have got a cent of my cash, without better and backed up information. This is especially important for an unusual design approach like this

 

[c.demille]

We are absolutely right. There has been a deliberate and unethical attempt to mislead.

This is what they actually say.

REQUIRED BACKBOX (SOLD SEPARATELY)

bx-12sq (optional)

It is only optional if you make your own back box! In the fine print they admit is can not work properly without the back box. To you and I, experienced in these matters can see it obviously can't.

The switch is to change the impedance for different amps. My guess is that this connects the drivers either in series or parallel. There is really nothing else it could do.

Honestly the presentation of this subwoofer is a disgrace and actually unethical.

Years ago, I did a couple of experiments with compressive woofers like that. They were not successful and I abandoned that line of research. I suspect the approach is valid, but that there were no really suitable drivers.

These drivers are made for the purpose. The specifications are totally inadequate and loaded with marketer speak. An FR is quoted, but there are no roll off limits. The FR graph is clearly not measured and drawn by a marketer and NOT an engineer. So the specs are meaningless.

So I have no idea whether this is a valid design or not. It is presented in a way that could be total fakery, but I just can't tell. I know one thing they would not have got a cent of my cash, without better and backed up information. This is especially important for an unusual design approach like this

Yes the website is a little unclear, like spec box you pasted it says "Required Backbox" then (optional). I think its trying to say if you use a backbox this is the required one... In another spot it says "NOTE: A backbox is optional with this subwoofer".

Another spot on the website says "For new construction an optional BX-12SQ backbox is designed to maximize output by adding precision low-noise ports. In truth, with the use of this backbox, performance is even a notch better!"

The switch i was referring to was not the one on the speaker, but one on the back of the amplifier which has 3 options, one for this specific sub with box, one for a different sub type, and one for the sub without a box. I went ahead and purchased boxes, so I hope these work ok.

I'm not disagreeing with your point about a back box being better, just wanting to clarify that their website does say multiple places that one isn't required and the installation manual expounds on it even further. You make me nervous that these might not work, but the little I could find on them was that they seemed to work fairly well.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes the website is a little unclear, like spec box you pasted it says "Required Backbox" then (optional). I think its trying to say if you use a backbox this is the required one... In another spot it says "NOTE: A backbox is optional with this subwoofer".

Another spot on the website says "For new construction an optional BX-12SQ backbox is designed to maximize output by adding precision low-noise ports. In truth, with the use of this backbox, performance is even a notch better!"

The switch i was referring to was not the one on the speaker, but one on the back of the amplifier which has 3 options, one for this specific sub with box, one for a different sub type, and one for the sub without a box. I went ahead and purchased boxes, so I hope these work ok.

I'm not disagreeing with your point about a back box being better, just wanting to clarify that their website does say multiple places that one isn't required and the installation manual expounds on it even further. You make me nervous that these might not work, but the little I could find on them was that they seemed to work fairly well.

It is more than unclear. It is only clear if you a fluent in marketer speech. So let me translate that for you.

"We have this subwoofer. There is a back box that we recommend you use, but you don't have to. If you don't use the back box it will not realy work properly and sound like absolute junk."

Conversation at the marketing department meeting.

"We don't want to deceive the technically naive who don't understand technical specs so we will claim a deep bass extension to 17 Hz. The naive will not realize that is a meaningless specification, but will be only too glad to tell people how low the sub will go. Fortunately the guys who really know how to interpret technical specifications will likely not be in the market for this product. So we have little to lose by promoting it as proposed."

"If we are unlucky, someone might actually buy one and measure its performance, and publish the data. That could cost some sales, but our target market don't read articles like that, so its low risk."

 

[lovinthehd]

I take it that there are no t/s parameters to be found? Maybe ask Paradigm?

 

[c.demille]

yeah it seems odd they list the t/s on their regular subs but don't list it on any of their in-wall subs. They have a compact sub called the milleniasub that uses a very similar driver to the one i ordered. According to the specs the milleniasub drivers are 14"x3" and the in wall is 14"x4". The milleniasub frequency response is 24hz-150hz so hopefully the in-wall would be at least similar if not lower since it has a much larger ported box and slightly larger driver. I would guess if you asked them whey they don't list it they would come up with a reasoning to do with the consumer using or not using a back box...which i agree is a lame reason.

 

[TLS Guy]

yeah it seems odd they list the t/s on their regular subs but don't list it on any of their in-wall subs. They have a compact sub called the milleniasub that uses a very similar driver to the one i ordered. According to the specs the milleniasub drivers are 14"x3" and the in wall is 14"x4". The milleniasub frequency response is 24hz-150hz so hopefully the in-wall would be at least similar if not lower since it has a much larger ported box and slightly larger driver. I would guess if you asked them whey they don't list it they would come up with a reasoning to do with the consumer using or not using a back box...which i agree is a lame reason.

I am going to take a guess that the 17Hz spec is actually somewhere around the -12 db point, which would put the -3db point south of 30 Hz at 26 to 27 Hz if you are lucky.

The drivers are 14" X 4" but the cone area will be lower than 56 sq. inches, as the spec will include the surround. A 10" driver is 78.55". Two drivers will not lower Fs but increase power handling. So those drivers have an area equivalent to an 8" driver.

A frequency response without the db. points is meaningless. Yes, it tells you nothing.

The trouble with in wall subs is that you are confined to stud spacing and depth. The only way round it, is to build a false wall and abandon standard stud spacing, which is what I did.

My wife always refers to that as her system, and very much takes ownership of it.

 

[Wardog555]

Are you interested in learning how to setup your speakers correctly op?
Your proposal is unsuitable for 7.1 but rather 5.1.2 with two ceiling speakers is appropriate with a change or two.

So far there's been no attempt whatsoever. Even the above comment has the front speakers way too narrow for their viewing distance.

 

[c.demille]

Are you interested in learning how to setup your speakers correctly op?
Your proposal is unsuitable for 7.1 but rather 5.1.2 with two ceiling speakers is appropriate with a change or two.

So far there's been no attempt whatsoever. Even the above comment has the front speakers way too narrow for their viewing distance.

Yes I am a beginner to this stuff and am open to learning more. I would love to hear your advice. My spacing I used was based on the modeler found on the audio advice website. The only thing different is the in ceiling surrounds of course...

 

[c.demille]

Something like this? With the rear speakers being in the back wall?

 

[TLS Guy]

Something like this? With the rear speakers being in the back wall?
View attachment 65631

That is the ideal, but as is more common than not you don't have the ideal, so you have to make the best of it.

I would definitely put the front three on the short wall to the right of the window.

The issue that concerns me is that it is a huge space with a lot of bass leakage. To provide a home theater experience is going to require a lot of power.

With your wife's constraints that is a huge problem.

I am far from certain that there is any commercial in wall subs that will do that room justice.

Having said that the really crucial speakers are the front left, right and center.

I would recommend these as the left and right speakers.

I would use this as the center.

I would enclose the 2 X 4 space above and below the speakers and fill the space with Polyfill. Otherwise the sound will bleed all over the house.

That gets your front three out of the way.

I would not go beyond a 5.2 system. You have no other option than ceiling speakers for surrounds.

Because of budget, you will need a receiver, and the system will be underpowered at first for that space. Make sure that the receiver has pre outs so you can add a powerful three channel power amp as funds permit.

With that space and your wife's constraints, I think that is the best you can do, which actually I think will be very good. My biggest concern is those subs. I doubt they will do the job required, but I can't say they won't.

That space is probably comparable to my great room, I showed you the pictures of. That uses high powered drivers, and the total power for the system is 1000 watts.

It does fill the space and it is full of bass leakage. However it is not our top end theater room, and we have what my wife calls my system in a purpose built theater room and that is a different story.

 

[c.demille]

Is this any better than my first take? I followed dolbys diagram that I posted previously. This should make a 5.2.2 system. I could possibly make this a 5.2.4 but the rear atmos would have to be mounted about a foot lower than the front atmos due to my ductwork. Would that still work or do all the atmos speakers need to be at the same height? Also, whether it is a good decision or not, I think I've decided to not rotate the room and use the short wall. That window will restrict my ability to ever switch out my tv for a projector if I ever decided to go that route.