Integrated Amp Question and Sound Quality

[ryanp]

My current setup is -
Speakers: (2) bookshelf cabinets with
Dayton Audio RS180S-8 7" Reference Shielded Woofer 8 Ohm (Sensitivity 86.9dB 2.83V/1m) 8Ω 60W RMS and
Dayton Audio DC28F-8 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeter (Sensitivity 89dB 2.83V/1m) 8Ω 50W RMS
Power: Pioneer SX253R really old stereo receiver
Music source: iPhone using Spotify paid service
iPhone connected to receiver with iPhone dongle 3.5 mini jack into high quality Dayton RCA cables
I have a powered subwoofer 10" with Dayton plate amp not currently hooked up because I just don't hear a difference in sound.
I also have a Audioengine D1 external DAC currently not using, I just don't hear it improves sound quality.

Information:
I feel the sound quality is dull and just not as full as it should be.
I only use this system for listening to music.
I am not interested in overspending for a amp, just need to know what to look for when choosing an amp to improve sound quality.
Interested in a piece of equipment that has a smaller footprint.

Questions:
How can I improve the sound quality?
Would a integrated amp improve sound quality?

Integrated amps I am interested in -
Would this amp make better sound compared to what I already have?
Onkyo A-9110: A-9110 Integrated Stereo Amplifier | Onkyo | Onkyo
NAD: C328: C 328 - NAD Electronics
Gold Note IS-10: IS-10 | Gold Note

I am open to answer any questions. Been reading and all I find is an amp will improve sound quality. Please provide some amp options for me to look at.

According to this website I should choose an amp that supplies 2x the RMS ratings of my speakers. When I add up 60+60+50+50=220. I should pick an amp that puts out 220 watts. Is this really true?

Choosing the Right Amplifier for Your Speakers

Choosing the right amplifier for your speakers can be tricky unless you know exactly what to look for. So, we're here with a handy guide!

www.gear4music.com

 

[Audiophile Heretic]

No, your calculation is not right. You can't add the power handling of your woofers to your tweeters. The power handling of your speakers would be the power handling of the woofers. Tweeters usually don't handle much power. The tweeter power handling spec given is probably not a real power spec, but includes the crossover high pass filter and assumes some "typical" power distribution of music over the sound frequency spectrum. Given the tweeter power handling spec is smaller, you could use that. The difference between 50W and 60W is only 0.79dB.

2 times 50W is 100W which can be expressed as 20dBW (decibel watts). 20dBW + 86.9dB SPL at 1W at 1m = 106.9dB SPL at 1W at 1m not including room gain. You will probably be listening farther away than 1m. Sound Pressure Level is reduced -6dB for every doubling of distance or 106.9dB SPL - 20 log (distance in meters / 1m). 1m = 3.28ft.

THX standard level is 85dB SPL at -20dB FS (full scale or full power) at the listening position, which I assume allows 105dB SPL at 0dB FS (full power).

NIOSH (National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health) REL (Recommended Exposure Limit) is 8 hours in 24 hours for 85dB SPL and 4 minutes 43 seconds in 24 hours for 105dB SPL to prevent hearing damage.

Be aware that you have two volume controls, the one in your receiver and the one in your iPhone. You may have an equalizer enabled in your iPhone that affects your sound quality.

I see Pioneer SX-253R is rated 70W per channel 8Ω continuous. The difference between 70W and 100W is only 1.5dB. Pioneer SX-253R power is rated 40Hz to 20kHz at 0.9% THD. Dynamic power is 100W into 8Ω, 150W into 4Ω, 180W into 2Ω. If you have the money to upgrade, go for it.

I recommend Yamaha A-S701 integrated amplifier. 100W per channel 0.019% THD 8Ω continuous 20Hz to 20kHz, 140W into 8Ω, 170W into 6Ω, 220W into 4Ω, 290W into 2Ω dynamic.

Speaker impedance is complex. Nominal impedance is a simplification. Speaker impedance magnitude and phase curves graph impedance over the sound spectrum, necessarily measured with sine waves. Music is not a sine wave. Speaker impedance magnitude and phase curves are a simplification.

Amplifier power is rated driving resistors with sine waves. Speakers are not resistors and music is not a sine wave. Amplifier rated power is a simplification.

 

[fuzzythoughts]

Peak SPL Calculator

suggestions:

The Cambridge Audio Azur 851A
or
Hegel H95

I use a Marantz PM6007 and it damn near perfection for me but no BT and it's 'only' around 50W I believe. These are positives for my circumstances, maybe not for you.

good luck!

 

[Audiophile Heretic]

Peak SPL Calculator

suggestions:

The Cambridge Audio Azur 851A
or
Hegel H95

I use a Marantz PM6007 and it damn near perfection for me but no BT and it's 'only' around 50W I believe. These are positives for my circumstances, maybe not for you.

good luck!

You made a very good point. An amp with bluetooth or an external bluetooth adapter would definitely be an improvement over the analog iPhone dongle.

 

[lovinthehd]

Are these DIY speakers? Not sure why you're listing the drivers' characteristics.

Generally you improve sound via speakers and room placement, not the amp. That is an old amp and perhaps it is failing, tho. I generally don't like most of the 2ch integrateds, especially when it comes to integrating a sub. How did you connect your sub before?

 

[MrBoat]

Are the speakers the result of an actual known kit, or at least a complete design with a proper functioning crossover network? Otherwise, it sounds as if someone just plopped drivers into any old box, and is going to be the glaring suspect with regard to poor sound quality.

Subwoofer making no difference in sound? Something is wrong there, too. Where did you get all of this equipment?

 

[j_garcia]

SPEAKERS make the biggest difference in your sound. No level of quality of amplification or source can improve poor speakers. Same as lovin and MrBoat, is this a kit with a proper crossover network or just some drivers in a prebuilt / knockdown box from PE? If that is the case, then the first step is buy an actual kit or a decent speaker.

 

[davidscott]

SPEAKERS make the biggest difference in your sound. No level of quality of amplification or source can improve poor speakers. Same as lovin and MrBoat, is this a kit with a proper crossover network or just some drivers in a prebuilt / knockdown box from PE? If that is the case, then the first step is buy an actual kit or a decent speaker.

Inversely, a horrible source could possibly sound worse on excellent speakers. Just sayin....

 

[mtrycrafts]

Inversely, a horrible source could possibly sound worse on excellent speakers. Just sayin....

Yep, an excellent speaker would only magnify how horrible the reordering is.

 

[j_garcia]

Inversely, a horrible source could possibly sound worse on excellent speakers. Just sayin....

Yep, true, you are only as good ad your weakest link. Speakers shouldn't be the weakest link though, if you are starting somewhere.

 

[cpp]

Yep, an excellent speaker would only magnify how horrible the reordering is.

Oh yes, garbage in , garbage out .

 

[highfigh]

My current setup is -
Speakers: (2) bookshelf cabinets with
Dayton Audio RS180S-8 7" Reference Shielded Woofer 8 Ohm (Sensitivity 86.9dB 2.83V/1m) 8Ω 60W RMS and
Dayton Audio DC28F-8 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeter (Sensitivity 89dB 2.83V/1m) 8Ω 50W RMS
Power: Pioneer SX253R really old stereo receiver
Music source: iPhone using Spotify paid service
iPhone connected to receiver with iPhone dongle 3.5 mini jack into high quality Dayton RCA cables
I have a powered subwoofer 10" with Dayton plate amp not currently hooked up because I just don't hear a difference in sound.
I also have a Audioengine D1 external DAC currently not using, I just don't hear it improves sound quality.

Information:
I feel the sound quality is dull and just not as full as it should be.
I only use this system for listening to music.
I am not interested in overspending for a amp, just need to know what to look for when choosing an amp to improve sound quality.
Interested in a piece of equipment that has a smaller footprint.

Questions:
How can I improve the sound quality?
Would a integrated amp improve sound quality?

Integrated amps I am interested in -
Would this amp make better sound compared to what I already have?
Onkyo A-9110: A-9110 Integrated Stereo Amplifier | Onkyo | Onkyo
NAD: C328: C 328 - NAD Electronics
Gold Note IS-10: IS-10 | Gold Note

I am open to answer any questions. Been reading and all I find is an amp will improve sound quality. Please provide some amp options for me to look at.

According to this website I should choose an amp that supplies 2x the RMS ratings of my speakers. When I add up 60+60+50+50=220. I should pick an amp that puts out 220 watts. Is this really true?

Choosing the Right Amplifier for Your Speakers

Choosing the right amplifier for your speakers can be tricky unless you know exactly what to look for. So, we're here with a handy guide!

www.gear4music.com

Smart phone headphone output uses the internal Digital to Analog Converter (DAC) and it's usually pretty bad when compared to the sound of a CD/wav, etc. I don't think a different amplifier will make enough difference to justify the expense unless it has BT or AirPlay.

If you can find a way to stream via AirPlay, it will sound better. I have used Miccus Bluetooth receivers and the sound was better than using a Y cord- that piece is about $50, on Amazon.

 

[ryanp]

My speakers were designed and built by an audio engineer using audio software. He build the cross overs I put the boxes, speakers together. I am sure the speakers are high quality and not the issue.
I have a Audioengine D1 24-bit DAC/Headphone Amp. What is the best way to connect this? I am limited to using the optical in port because I have to use the USB port to power the unit.
Audioengine D1 24-bit DAC/Headphone Amp:
USB port to wall power
RCA outs to receiver - I have parts express dayton cables
Optical in from iPhone. What is the best way to make this connection? Would it a cable toslink>3.5mm>iPhone dongle>lighting port>iPhone?

Would the dac make a difference in sound quality?
If the speakers are not the issue then could be be the audio source for example streaming from Spotify?
Spotify I pay for the service and stream the high quality files.

 

[Audiophile Heretic]

...and also toying with the idea of adding an integrated amp to the setup (most likely the Audiolab 6000A).

My questions are:
1) Would there be any notable improvement in the sound quality of the front speakers (Klipsch RP-6000F) when watching movies (e.g. when the AVR is handling pre-amp function) by adding the integrated amp?

2) ...would the AVR need to be powered on or would I simply be able to enable some passthrough while in standby mode option in the AVR's operating system?

I can't think of any valid reason to add a 50W/channel Audiolab 6000A integrated amp to a 105W/channel Denon AVC-X3700H AVR. No, I don't believe there will be any improvement. Yes, it would be possible to connect the AVR and the integrated amp using the separate power amplifier mode of the integrated amp. Yes, the AVR would need to be powered on because HDMI digital audio has to be converted to analog audio for the AVR preamplifier outputs and all AVR switching and preamplfier circuits would be enabled. The AVR preamplifier would be used to drive the separate power amplifier section of the integrated amp to drive the front speakers. The separate preamplifier section of the expensive integrated amp would go unused.

 

[TLS Guy]

My speakers were designed and built by an audio engineer using audio software. He build the cross overs I put the boxes, speakers together. I am sure the speakers are high quality and not the issue.
I have a Audioengine D1 24-bit DAC/Headphone Amp. What is the best way to connect this? I am limited to using the optical in port because I have to use the USB port to power the unit.
Audioengine D1 24-bit DAC/Headphone Amp:
USB port to wall power
RCA outs to receiver - I have parts express dayton cables
Optical in from iPhone. What is the best way to make this connection? Would it a cable toslink>3.5mm>iPhone dongle>lighting port>iPhone?

Would the dac make a difference in sound quality?
If the speakers are not the issue then could be be the audio source for example streaming from Spotify?
Spotify I pay for the service and stream the high quality files.

Have you or he, taken measurements of the speakers? Generally speaking you do not get a hole in one with a speaker design. Modelling software only gets you so far. It is useful for getting you in the ballpark and not always achieves that. Subs are a different matter and you can be more reliant on the model, but not total speakers.
So you have to check your design with good equipment and measuring software.

If this guy just gave you a one off design and said build it, and here are the crossovers, I can assure you that far more likely than not the speakers need further work and modification.

 

[3db]

Can we get a diagram of your room and equipment placement with dimensions. There was also a question directed to you about how you connected your sub to the system. Where did you place your subwoofers?

 

[TLS Guy]

My speakers were designed and built by an audio engineer using audio software. He build the cross overs I put the boxes, speakers together. I am sure the speakers are high quality and not the issue.
I have a Audioengine D1 24-bit DAC/Headphone Amp. What is the best way to connect this? I am limited to using the optical in port because I have to use the USB port to power the unit.
Audioengine D1 24-bit DAC/Headphone Amp:
USB port to wall power
RCA outs to receiver - I have parts express dayton cables
Optical in from iPhone. What is the best way to make this connection? Would it a cable toslink>3.5mm>iPhone dongle>lighting port>iPhone?

Would the dac make a difference in sound quality?
If the speakers are not the issue then could be be the audio source for example streaming from Spotify?
Spotify I pay for the service and stream the high quality files.

I have had a look at those drivers. They are inexpensive basic units, and actually difficult if not impossible to pair.

The woofer runs into serious cone break up at 2 KHz and so needs to cross at 1.5 KHz unless a complex and costly fourth order crossover was used.

The tweeter seems a good value unit, but its free air resonance is 834 Hz, and so needs to cross by 1700 Hz unless again a complex fourth order crossover is used.

My hunch is that the bass driver is actually being driven into its cone break up area. So as always measurements need to be made. Crossing those drivers seamlessly would be a major challenge, and the chance of getting it right first time is remote.

So you need to look to your speakers for your problems and not amps. When you don't like the sound you here the problem is almost always the speakers.

 

[Swerd]

I agree with TLS Guy. That woofer can't go high enough without breaking up, and that tweeter can't go low enough without distorting. Your problem would be solved by a different, smaller woofer, or a tweeter capable of going lower.

The two drivers you now have might also work better using a different crossover with steeper roll-off slopes, such as 4th order slopes, but I can't be certain about that.

Your problem will not be solved with a different amp.

 

[TLS Guy]

I agree with TLS Guy. That woofer can't go high enough without breaking up, and that tweeter can't go low enough without distorting. Your problem would be solved by a different, smaller woofer, or a tweeter capable of going lower.

The two drivers you now have might also work better using a different crossover with steeper roll-off slopes, such as 4th order slopes, but I can't be certain about that.

Your problem will not be solved with a different amp.

That is the issue Swerd. I doubt that "engineer" has designed many speakers, as his driver selection was suboptimal for a start. I would not have matched up those drivers in a two way bookshelf speaker. As I have said many times on here, when starting a design, driver selection is job one. Get that wrong and there is no coming back. There are boat loads of better of better options. Nice to see you back on the forum.

 

[Focus SE]

Be aware that you have two volume controls, the one in your receiver and the one in your iPhone. You may have an equalizer enabled in your iPhone that affects your sound quality.

This is very helpful information to me on an unrelated topic. My history has always been that when get any electronic that involves music, is to change eq to taste. Basically, it's the equivalent of getting a bad meal and throwing as much salt and pepper at it to make it tolerable. In this particular case mine was set to off so not really relevant. But it could have been knowing my history.

It wasn't until I got a real big boy set up that I started to understand how much I was trying to compensate for really inferior set up and I don't necessarily mean equipment. With every expanding piece of gear added to a system with all of its own features affecting the features of the next unit, it can be a daunting task to understand.