Need Advice on Upgrade Path

S

steven.towne

Audiophyte
Problem: As volume increases on either movies or music, distortion increases. I recently upgraded my speakers and do feel the weak spot may be the receiver.

Speakers - Bowers and Wilkins N805 D4 Signatures on Sound Anchor stands
Subwoofer - HSU VTF3-MK V
Amplification - PS Audio M700 Monoblocks for all channels
Center - KEF R200C ( I am limited in upgrade path here due to height in the cabinet. I have pondered another and put them side by side. Prob a bad idea)
Rears - Kef R8 Rears
Receiver - NAD T758V3
TV - Sony XBR 900E 55"

I am 5.1 and probably staying that way due to living room constraints. My local dealer recommended swapping the NAD for an AVM90. This seems overkill to me only because of the low utilization of channels and only one sub. My main desire is improvement in quality of sound and music. Probably listen more to movies than just play music. Actually, I do a lot of YouTube watching for music. My main source is the latest Apple TV with Apple Music and streaming for movies. I have all HDMI 2.1 compatible cabling.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Which speakers are having the distorted sound?

If the AVR is DEFECTIVE, it could cause distortion.

If the AVR is NOT defective, it is NOT the fault of the AVR since it's not even powering the speakers - your external amps are powering the speakers.

You could just try another much less expensive AVR. No need to spend $7K for 5.1Ch.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Problem: As volume increases on either movies or music, distortion increases. I recently upgraded my speakers and do feel the weak spot may be the receiver.

Speakers - Bowers and Wilkins N805 D4 Signatures on Sound Anchor stands
Subwoofer - HSU VTF3-MK V
Amplification - PS Audio M700 Monoblocks for all channels
Center - KEF R200C ( I am limited in upgrade path here due to height in the cabinet. I have pondered another and put them side by side. Prob a bad idea)
Rears - Kef R8 Rears
Receiver - NAD T758V3
TV - Sony XBR 900E 55"

I am 5.1 and probably staying that way due to living room constraints. My local dealer recommended swapping the NAD for an AVM90. This seems overkill to me only because of the low utilization of channels and only one sub. My main desire is improvement in quality of sound and music. Probably listen more to movies than just play music. Actually, I do a lot of YouTube watching for music. My main source is the latest Apple TV with Apple Music and streaming for movies. I have all HDMI 2.1 compatible cabling.
How loud does it need to be? At the 4.6 Ohm minimum impedance shown in their specs, your amplifiers are outputting over 600W and at 88dB sensitivity, that's around 115dB, with one channel driving one speaker.

Where is the volume control's indicator when the distortion becomes noticeable, relative to the hour hand on a clock?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I've seen enough measurements of other gear from PS Audio to actually question the efficacy of ANYTHING they make. Not saying this is the actual cause... and certainly shouldn't be... but this is the one thing that caught my eye in your set up.
NAD is generally well respected, though it is possible something could be amiss in its processing.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Can't imagine it's the avr particularly. You seem to have sufficient amplification (and its external to boot). I'd suspect the speakers first, particularly B&Ws, maybe just your room and how you've set it up. Maybe some of your sources could stand some improvement, tho.

If this is the dealer's best suggestion I'd probably not use that dealer any more....
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
Why not start ruling things out and connect the speakers directly to the receiver to check for distortion from the receiver amps? There should be no concerns powering those five speakers with that receiver. Go beyond any reasonable volume levels with any amp or set of speakers and all bets are off.

It’s been said here a million times, but the increase in quality of sound from any system will result when an increase of quality of speakers is integrated into the system more than any new form of amplification.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Why not start ruling things out and connect the speakers directly to the receiver to check for distortion from the receiver amps? There should be no concerns powering those five speakers with that receiver. Go beyond any reasonable volume levels with any amp or set of speakers and all bets are off.

It’s been said here a million times, but the increase in quality of sound from any system will result when an increase of quality of speakers is integrated into the system more than any new form of amplification.
Fwiw he's using external amps on each channel, these
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
Right, so rule out distortion from external amps by connecting to internal amps.

While tracking distortion down, why not try using Airplay to rule out the HDMI port. There are things that can be done before running out and spending more money on a suggested pre-amp/pro.
 
S

steven.towne

Audiophyte
Thank you for all the quick replies. The distortion happens at around -25 to -20 dB or higher.
After the $12K upgrade to the speakers, which sound great, I am questioning the NAD. I have read its measurements are outright horrible. I tend to not think it is the PS Audio Monoblocs. My first stepstone upgrade before the B&W's was a PS Audio S300 powering the front mains. It was a great improvement over the built in amplification. At that time, I had KEF LS50's. They sounded great also but could not achieve the volume in that living space very well.
Is there a more conservative approach than the AVM90 that would yield improvements for 5.1?
As far as sources, Airplay does not work with the NAD. So, any Airplay to the Apple TV would go over HDMI anyway. I usually play directly from the Apple TV through Apple Music, streaming, or YouTube. All the lossless defaults are picked.
I do not want to over exaggerate the distortion. The system sounds great. But at those higher volume levels the music especially gets slightly unpleasant is how I would put it.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you for all the quick replies. The distortion happens at around -25 to -20 dB or higher.
After the $12K upgrade to the speakers, which sound great, I am questioning the NAD. I have read its measurements are outright horrible. I tend to not think it is the PS Audio Monoblocs. My first stepstone upgrade before the B&W's was a PS Audio S300 powering the front mains. It was a great improvement over the built in amplification. At that time, I had KEF LS50's. They sounded great also but could not achieve the volume in that living space very well.
Is there a more conservative approach than the AVM90 that would yield improvements for 5.1?
As far as sources, Airplay does not work with the NAD. So, any Airplay to the Apple TV would go over HDMI anyway. I usually play directly from the Apple TV through Apple Music, streaming, or YouTube. All the lossless defaults are picked.
I do not want to over exaggerate the distortion. The system sounds great. But at those higher volume levels the music especially gets slightly unpleasant is how I would put it.
If you prefer a one liner suggestions, just feel free to skip the rest after the following sentence:

Assuming your B&W diamond N805 D4 signature speakers are the 805 diamond D4, I would say replace the NAD AVR and then see what happens.

If you don't mind more details:

I have no experience with any of the exact devices (but somewhat familiar with the brands and related products) you listed), so I would offer the following bullet points based on my understanding of the specifications and available bench measurements only:

  1. Speakers in-room FR are most important, the B&W N805 D4 is probably fine, assuming it is the 805 D4 that has the diamond tweeter, I am confused with the "N" because the older B&W non diamond models used that letter a lot, ie. N for Nautilus but I am not aware they use it for the diamond series.
  2. The PS Audio amp is likely not popular here or on ASR, due to their not too good measurements relative to many other amps at the price point or even at much lower price point, but your M700 does have more than enough voltage and current for the 805D4 so unless you can return them or trade them in for something that measure better, I would say just keep them and upgrade the AVR/AVP first and see what happens.
  3. At -20 or even -15, if you can hear distortions, then I am sure you are right, it won't be due to the power amp or the 805D4, though it might be possible if your heard it from the R200C and/or the R8s.
  4. NAD T758V3 - That's 100% the weak link, based on published specs and the ASR bench measurements. It is probably had the worse measurements on multiple fronts relative to all other AVRs/AVCs/AVPs measure on ASR.
So, it would seem if you want to upgrade, you should target the NAD AVR first. The T758V3's poor measurements do not mean they will sound bad, they can, and should, still sound very good especially if you run Dirac Live properly, but it does depend more on you listening habit and speakers. In your case, since you are only talking about volume at -20, I don't think it is the issue, but it is possible that you are very sensitive to low level distortions such that even at 0.5% THD+N, it may bother you.

If that's the case, any midrange D+M AVRs, or Yamaha's A6A/A8A should solve the problem, or the NAD T778 if you want Dirac Live included (for D+M you have to buy the DL license separately).

If your dealer pushes Anthem, then I would try to get him to give you a good trade-in value for the NAD. The AVM90 does seem like an overkill. From specs and measurements, I would say the AVM70 should be as good, unless you need 4 independent subouts. Owners of the AVM90 will tell you the significant better "sound quality" you will get from the 90, vs the 70, but I would bet 10:1 that in a blind listening test, none of them will be able to tell a difference between their 90, and the 70, or any of Anthem AVRs, yes, even the lowly MRX540, but that's a different topic and the debate on blind tests vs sighted tests will never settle on forums. I have listened to the 90 in the dealers demo room for no less than 30 minutes, to me there was nothing remarkable about it's sonic performance.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Why not start ruling things out and connect the speakers directly to the receiver to check for distortion from the receiver amps? There should be no concerns powering those five speakers with that receiver. Go beyond any reasonable volume levels with any amp or set of speakers and all bets are off.

It’s been said here a million times, but the increase in quality of sound from any system will result when an increase of quality of speakers is integrated into the system more than any new form of amplification.
I would start by measuring the SPL when it starts to sound bad. If it's above 100dB, listening for distortion is pointless because human hearing isn't sensitive to it at high levels and we don't hear dynamics very well. Also, if it takes time for the distortion to start at the levels the OP says he uses, thermal compression is likely because that power amp is more than the speakers are rated for. There's no way the AVR will produce the same SPL as the power amp, whether the amp's specs are accurate or now. In addition, the room adds its own damage to the sound quality and at that level, what is perceived as distortion could very well be objects rattling and moving.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
At -25, the supposed starting point of the issue, there is no reason not to check the NAD’s amps. If the bluOS Kit is not installed, then no, Airplay will not work. I wouldn’t blast Youtube uploads when listening to music. Install the kit and get Qobuz for cryin’ out loud.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
Spending an unnecessary fortune on a new pre pro to match the unnecessary fortune spent on speakers will not guarantee improved quality. I simply suggested using the NAD's amps for comparison to see if the issue persists.. You don't need an excuse or anybody's recommendation to go out and spend an exorbitant sum on a new pre pro. If that is what you want to do, do it. Have a look at the McIntosh MX123. No, it won't do it any better than any less expensive option, but it is pretty. You know, like the speakers.
 
S

steven.towne

Audiophyte
If you prefer a one liner suggestions, just feel free to skip the rest after the following sentence:

Assuming your B&W diamond N805 D4 signature speakers are the 805 diamond D4, I would say replace the NAD AVR and then see what happens.

If you don't mind more details:

I have no experience with any of the exact devices (but somewhat familiar with the brands and related products) you listed), so I would offer the following bullet points based on my understanding of the specifications and available bench measurements only:

  1. Speakers in-room FR are most important, the B&W N805 D4 is probably fine, assuming it is the 805 D4 that has the diamond tweeter, I am confused with the "N" because the older B&W non diamond models used that letter a lot, ie. N for Nautilus but I am not aware they use it for the diamond series.
  2. The PS Audio amp is likely not popular here or on ASR, due to their not too good measurements relative to many other amps at the price point or even at much lower price point, but your M700 does have more than enough voltage and current for the 805D4 so unless you can return them or trade them in for something that measure better, I would say just keep them and upgrade the AVR/AVP first and see what happens.
  3. At -20 or even -15, if you can hear distortions, then I am sure you are right, it won't be due to the power amp or the 805D4, though it might be possible if your heard it from the R200C and/or the R8s.
  4. NAD T758V3 - That's 100% the weak link, based on published specs and the ASR bench measurements. It is probably had the worse measurements on multiple fronts relative to all other AVRs/AVCs/AVPs measure on ASR.
So, it would seem if you want to upgrade, you should target the NAD AVR first. The T758V3's poor measurements do not mean they will sound bad, they can, and should, still sound very good especially if you run Dirac Live properly, but it does depend more on you listening habit and speakers. In your case, since you are only talking about volume at -20, I don't think it is the issue, but it is possible that you are very sensitive to low level distortions such that even at 0.5% THD+N, it may bother you.

If that's the case, any midrange D+M AVRs, or Yamaha's A6A/A8A should solve the problem, or the NAD T778 if you want Dirac Live included (for D+M you have to buy the DL license separately).

If your dealer pushes Anthem, then I would try to get him to give you a good trade-in value for the NAD. The AVM90 does seem like an overkill. From specs and measurements, I would say the AVM70 should be as good, unless you need 4 independent subouts. Owners of the AVM90 will tell you the significant better "sound quality" you will get from the 90, vs the 70, but I would bet 10:1 that in a blind listening test, none of them will be able to tell a difference between their 90, and the 70, or any of Anthem AVRs, yes, even the lowly MRX540, but that's a different topic and the debate on blind tests vs sighted tests will never settle on forums. I have listened to the 90 in the dealers demo room for no less than 30 minutes, to me there was nothing remarkable about it's sonic performance.
I like the idea of the AVM70. Are there other considerations or options near that price point? - Steven Towne
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Problem: As volume increases on either movies or music, distortion increases. I recently upgraded my speakers and do feel the weak spot may be the receiver.

Speakers - Bowers and Wilkins N805 D4 Signatures on Sound Anchor stands
Subwoofer - HSU VTF3-MK V
Amplification - PS Audio M700 Monoblocks for all channels
Center - KEF R200C ( I am limited in upgrade path here due to height in the cabinet. I have pondered another and put them side by side. Prob a bad idea)
Rears - Kef R8 Rears
Receiver - NAD T758V3
TV - Sony XBR 900E 55"

I am 5.1 and probably staying that way due to living room constraints. My local dealer recommended swapping the NAD for an AVM90. This seems overkill to me only because of the low utilization of channels and only one sub. My main desire is improvement in quality of sound and music. Probably listen more to movies than just play music. Actually, I do a lot of YouTube watching for music. My main source is the latest Apple TV with Apple Music and streaming for movies. I have all HDMI 2.1 compatible cabling.
I would get the NAD checked out on a distortion analyzer. I never recommend Not Always Dependable NAD gear.
 
S

steven.towne

Audiophyte
One more factor to add to this mix that I just found out. The Anthem AVM90 goes on sale Monday 11/20 at my dealer for 15% off. Making it $6374.15. The AVM70 is also 15% off at $3395.75. With the improvements internally on the 90 componentry, layout, and made in Canada I am thinking it may be the way to go. Probably an early Black Friday present for myself.

I think due to the age of my T758V3, it may have some effects of component choices and normal component aging. This model was not really known for it's longevity and the problems I have stated seem commonplace in searching blogs.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Is it possible there’s a gain structure issue here?
 

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