Speaker sensitivity?

[Squishman]

Calibrated again early this morning. This time I set it at about 7:30 on the knob! Not time. I am talking about the gain control. Amp now say +7.0. Put on an LP on low volume after the sub turned itself off. It didn't trigger until I turned up the amp (RZ50). Stayed on for about 1/2 of the LP side, but then triggered off. I will consider leaving the sub on next. Going to work now, so it'll be later on.

 

[highfigh]

There is no speaker industry standard for measuring speaker sensitivity. Klipsch may have it's own way, and other companies will have theirs. As a result, it's difficult to make direct comparisons among different makes of speakers.

Some companies measure sensitivity with the speaker close to a wall behind the speaker, or even in a corner. Others measure it with the speaker several feet away from a wall behind the speaker. The reinforcement from nearby walls can make a big difference.

Speaker companies are aware that people pay attention to sensitivity numbers, and that publishing higher sensitivities make more sales. That leads some speaker makers exaggerate their sensitivity numbers.

I wish there was an industry standard. The Canadian National Research Council does show speaker sensitivities when measured in their anechoeic chamber (with little or no reinforcement from walls), averaging the SPL over a range of frequencies from 300Hz to 3kHz, when powering the speaker with 2.83V, and when the measuring microphone is 1 meter away. If all speaker makers followed that standard, it might eliminate a lot of the exaggeration.

High sensitivity does not indicate better speaker sound quality. It just means less amp wattage is required for it to play loud. Far too many people confuse loud for high quality sound.

104 dB/watt at 1 meter is extremely sensitive. I think anything more than an honest 92 dB is actually very sensitive. Sensitivities of 86-88 dB are average. 84 dB or less, in insensitive.

Yes, you can hear a 4 dB difference in sensitivities, even 3 dB, and sometimes less.

So, the EIA and IEEE sensitivity method of 2.83V/1 meter@8 Ohms isn't standardized enough for you? They have been using that method for decades, but they used to call the power level '1 Watt' to decrease confusion and to show accuracy since 2.83V is 1 Watt only when the impedance is 8 Ohms.

The Cornwall specs show this- " SENSITIVITY1 102dB @ 2.83V / 1m" although it also shows "NOMINAL IMPEDANCE 8 ohms Compatible", so someone should probably ask them what they mean by 'compatible'.

 

[Swerd]

So, the EIA and IEEE sensitivity method of 2.83V/1 meter@8 Ohms isn't standardized enough for you?

No it isn't standardized because that method ignores sound reinforcement from walls. If a speaker company chose, it could place a speaker near a wall or a corner, and achieve greater SPL with 2.83V at 1 meter. That can account for about 3-6 dB in greater sensitivity. All while appearing to adhere to the EIA/IEEE standard method.

The EIA/IEEE method also does not identify a frequency or frequency range for a sensitivity value. That allows a speaker company to choose whatever is the loudest peak their speaker produces.

I thought I made this clear in my earlier post.

The Canadian National Research Council does show speaker sensitivities when measured in their anechoeic chamber (with little or no reinforcement from walls), averaging the SPL over a range of frequencies from 300Hz to 3kHz, when powering the speaker with 2.83V, and when the measuring microphone is 1 meter away. If all speaker makers followed that standard, it might eliminate a lot of the exaggeration.

 

[Squishman]

No, I'd just leave it on. Sound better than always wondering if its going to turn on or off on its own....not a big fan of auto-on circuits and seems often a failure point in any case. I'd rather not have to touch sub controls once I'm setup....

Thx a ton for this advice. Playing Badfinger's Straight On LP. Started at low volume and I had bass. Just great. No longer in the market buy those Crites speakers.
I turned down the sub output level since my calibration this morning. But I will be doing another calibration this weekend because I have a new crossover arriving Saturday for my 44 year old center speaker. So all that in mind, for this next calibration, where shall I have my sub's gain control?

 

[lovinthehd]

Thx a ton for this advice. Playing Badfinger's Straight On LP. Started at low volume and I had bass. Just great. No longer in the market buy those Crites speakers.
I turned down the sub output level since my calibration this morning. But I will be doing another calibration this weekend because I have a new crossover arriving Saturday for my 44 year old center speaker. So all that in mind, for this next calibration, where shall I have my sub's gain control?

While I'd rather, as was mentioned by William, have my avr's sub trim level in the negative rather than positive range, sometimes you just need to adjust gain on the sub's amp to where it works best for you. Another thought is perhaps leaving the amp on the sub in the on position and use a smart power strip or electrical outlet to power the sub as needed (I do the smart power strip for several of my subs, to turn on/off with the avr).

 

[Squishman]

While I'd rather, as was mentioned by William, have my avr's sub trim level in the negative rather than positive range, sometimes you just need to adjust gain on the sub's amp to where it works best for you. Another thought is perhaps leaving the amp on the sub in the on position and use a smart power strip or electrical outlet to power the sub as needed (I do the smart power strip for several of my subs, to turn on/off with the avr).

I contacted HSU and they told me this:

"Thanks for reaching out! We agree that if your sub is not receiving enough input voltage to trigger the auto circuit, just leave it in the on position. The subwoofer is designed to be very efficient, so if it's not outputting anything it's drawing minimal current as it is in standby mode (red LED) or off. Leaving it "on" will not have any impact on the lifespan on the components vs off or standby."

So that was great to know and it confirmed your advice.

 

[Squishman]

So when I re-calibrate after I install the new xover in the Cornwall center speaker (sub will be "on" from here on out), where shall I set the gain for the calibration? Does it matter much? Just 11:00 and call it a day?

 

[lovinthehd]

So when I re-calibrate after I install the new xover in the Cornwall center speaker (sub will be "on" from here on out), where shall I set the gain for the calibration? Does it matter much? Just 11:00 and call it a day?

If using the on-only mode on the sub amp, I'd aim at -11.5 sub trim result on the avr or as close to it as I could get (but not -12, the max adjustment the avr can make)

 

[Squishman]

If using the on-only mode on the sub amp, I'd aim at -11.5 sub trim result on the avr or as close to it as I could get (but not -12, the max adjustment the avr can make)

Why is that? I was hoping to hover around -.5 or +.5 for more headroom.

 

[lovinthehd]

Why is that? I was hoping to hover around -.5 or +.5 for more headroom.

Just more headroom really....Do you plan to increase trim level from that set during calibration?

 

[Squishman]

During? No. I don't understand why it should be super low.

 

[lovinthehd]

During? No. I don't understand why it should be super low.

Okay now you lost me....during what? I'd just prefer my avr sub trim level be set well into the negative range, but not to it's max (generally -12)

 

[Squishman]

Just more headroom really....Do you plan to increase trim level from that set during calibration?

You said "during". No clue what you mean.

 

[lovinthehd]

You said "during". No clue what you mean.

LOL first I saw "during" was your post....I'm lost.

 

[Squishman]

Ha. I'm just plenty pleased that I am keeping my La Scalas and I don't have to shell out any shekels.

 

[highfigh]

No it isn't standardized because that method ignores sound reinforcement from walls. If a speaker company chose, it could place a speaker near a wall or a corner, and achieve greater SPL with 2.83V at 1 meter. That can account for about 3-6 dB in greater sensitivity. All while appearing to adhere to the EIA/IEEE standard method.

The EIA/IEEE method also does not identify a frequency or frequency range for a sensitivity value. That allows a speaker company to choose whatever is the loudest peak their speaker produces.

I thought I made this clear in my earlier post.

The CEA (Consumer Electronics Association) is now called the CTA (Consumer Technology Association) and the combined association was called CEA-EIA, now called CTA-EIA. I called IEEE and they referred me to EIA, who referred me to a specific person, so I called him. While we were chatting, I found the link and downloaded it but it's too large to post here, so this link will allow anyone to download it. AH might want to post this in some area where it can be found easily.

Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home Loudspeakers (ANSI/CTA-2034-A R-2020)

This Standard describes how to determine the frequency response, directivity and maximum output capability of a residential loudspeaker.

shop.cta.tech

Scroll to section 5.1 and it shows input voltage, distance, testing environment (anechoic chamber or outdoors).

I don't remember seing sensitivity specs that specifically mentioned being testing in a room, only some kind of anechoic chamber or place where reflections won't be a factor. If a manufacturer doesn't have an anechoic chamber, they can rent time in one, or they can test outdoors, as allowed (similar/same method used by Shady, here). This kind of test has been done for decades and if the specs had been fudged, the reviews should have shown this.

 

[Swerd]

The CEA (Consumer Electronics Association) is now called the CTA (Consumer Technology Association) and the combined association was called CEA-EIA, now called CTA-EIA. I called IEEE and they referred me to EIA, who referred me to a specific person, so I called him. While we were chatting, I found the link and downloaded it but it's too large to post here, so this link will allow anyone to download it. AH might want to post this in some area where it can be found easily.

Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home Loudspeakers (ANSI/CTA-2034-A R-2020)

This Standard describes how to determine the frequency response, directivity and maximum output capability of a residential loudspeaker.

shop.cta.tech

Scroll to section 5.1 and it shows input voltage, distance, testing environment (anechoic chamber or outdoors).

I don't remember seing sensitivity specs that specifically mentioned being testing in a room, only some kind of anechoic chamber or place where reflections won't be a factor. If a manufacturer doesn't have an anechoic chamber, they can rent time in one, or they can test outdoors, as allowed (similar/same method used by Shady, here). This kind of test has been done for decades and if the specs had been fudged, the reviews should have shown this.

Thanks for taking the effort to find that. I didn't know it existed. And, apparently, neither do some speaker manufacturers, such as Klipsch. They seem to ignore it. And, that's the trouble with so-called standards. Unless they're enforced, they are easily ignored.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for taking the effort at finding that. I didn't know it existed. And neither do some speaker manufacturers, such as Klipsch. They seem to ignore it. And, that's the trouble with so-called standards. Unless they're enforced, they are easily ignored.

Trust the government to change the name from CES to CTA without telling anyone. I wonder how big a backhander someone received for that.

 

[Swerd]

Trust the government to change the name from CES to CTA without telling anyone. I wonder how big a backhander someone received for that.

The Consumer Technology Association (CTA) is a private standards and trade organization representing 1,376 consumer technology companies in the United States. It is not part of the US Government. CTA works to influence public policy, holds events such as the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) & CES Asia, conducts market research, and helps its members and regulators implement technical standards. CTA is led by president and CEO Gary J. Shapiro.

Consumer Technology Association - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

CTA originally started as the Radio Manufacturers Association (RMA) in 1924. In 1950, it changed its name to Radio-Television Manufacturers Association (RTMA). In 1953, it changed its name to Radio-Electronics-Television Manufacturers Association (RETMA). It was then the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) from 1957 to 1998, when it became the Electronic Industries Alliance. In 1995, EIA's Consumer Electronics Group (CEG) became the Consumer Electronics Manufacturers Association (CEMA). In 1999, President Gary Shapiro announced the trade group's name change from CEMA to the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) and became an independent sector of the Electronic Industries Alliance (EIA). The name of CEA was changed to Consumer Technology Association (CTA) in November 2015.

I always wonder about any group that changes its name so often. All those names over the years seem to suggest initial success … but what is their real intent?

 

[mtrycrafts]

The Consumer Technology Association (CTA) is a private standards and trade organization representing 1,376 consumer technology companies in the United States. It is not part of the US Government. CTA works to influence public policy, holds events such as the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) & CES Asia, conducts market research, and helps its members and regulators implement technical standards. CTA is led by president and CEO Gary J. Shapiro.

Consumer Technology Association - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

CTA originally started as the Radio Manufacturers Association (RMA) in 1924. In 1950, it changed its name to Radio-Television Manufacturers Association (RTMA). In 1953, it changed its name to Radio-Electronics-Television Manufacturers Association (RETMA). It was then the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) from 1957 to 1998, when it became the Electronic Industries Alliance. In 1995, EIA's Consumer Electronics Group (CEG) became the Consumer Electronics Manufacturers Association (CEMA). In 1999, President Gary Shapiro announced the trade group's name change from CEMA to the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) and became an independent sector of the Electronic Industries Alliance (EIA). The name of CEA was changed to Consumer Technology Association (CTA) in November 2015.

I always wonder about any group that changes its name so often. All those names over the years seem to suggest initial success … but what is their real intent?

Maturity, changes in naming and product/messaging unlike Ford Motor or similar that makes the same product over many decades, no need to change names unless bought out.