Seeking VHS Releases in Original Dolby Surround & Post-Pro Logic I Re-releases

[TheRealOC]

Hi folks,

I’m looking for movies that were originally released on VHS in the original Dolby Surround and were subsequently re-released on VHS after the advent of Dolby Pro Logic I.

I’m keen on listening to the subtle nuances and improvements between the two sound formats, especially concerning the center channel’s representation.

If anyone can recommend some movie titles that fit this description, I’d be very grateful. While I’m aware of some major releases (Star Wars, Indiana Jones etc), I’m sure there are hidden gems out there I’m missing

Many thanks as always
Ollie

 

[TheRealOC]

Forgot to mention - I think I’m correct in saying that while Dolby Pro Logic I had its own distinct logo, numerous post-1987 media used the “Dolby Surround” logo but were, in essence, encoded in a manner compatible with Pro Logic I decoders. So I’m particularly interested in pre-1987 Dolby Surround VHS releases for an authentic comparison.

 

[TLS Guy]

Forgot to mention - I think I’m correct in saying that while Dolby Pro Logic I had its own distinct logo, numerous post-1987 media used the “Dolby Surround” logo but were, in essence, encoded in a manner compatible with Pro Logic I decoders. So I’m particularly interested in pre-1987 Dolby Surround VHS releases for an authentic comparison.

Not sure about that. VHS was always two channel stereo. As far as I am aware Dolby pro logic was always just an up mixer. I suppose the mix may have been done in a way to get the best out of the upmixer. It was all similar to the nonsense of getting quadraphonic sound from LPs. It was all minimally, and you could argue totally ineffective, at best.

So I suspect subsequent releases have the same mix, and not really worth worrying about. True audio with more than two discrete channels took either multitrack stacked head reel to reel recorders, or had to await the arrival of digital media. There was also a three channel discrete system for optical recorders starting from the fifties.

 

[TheRealOC]

Not sure about that. VHS was always two channel stereo. As far as I am aware Dolby pro logic was always just an up mixer. I suppose the mix may have been done in a way to get the best out of the upmixer. It was all similar to the nonsense of getting quadraphonic sound from LPs. It was all minimally, and you could argue totally ineffective, at best.

So I suspect subsequent releases have the same mix, and not really worth worrying about. True audio with more than two discrete channels took either multitrack stacked head reel to reel recorders, or had to await the arrival of digital media. There was also a three channel discrete system for optical recorders starting from the fifties.

I’m certain that matrixed surround can be decoded from a VHS. Don’t worry, I’m not looking to replace my Atmos setup with it . This is purely a fun experiment to indulge my own curiosity, even if the sound isn’t discrete.

I’ve got a Lexicon CP-1 Pro Logic I processor and an original Yamaha DSP-1 (OG Dolby Surround) in my collection. I’m still in the process of pairing them with the appropriate amplifiers. Just as a hypothetical example, if someone were to say, ‘E.T. first hit VHS in 1982 and then got a re-release in 1988 after Pro Logic I was introduced,’ that’s precisely the kind of information I’m on the hunt for.

 

[ben_]

It's too bad there's not a Discogs for movies. That sounds like what you're after.

 

[TLS Guy]

I’m certain that matrixed surround can be decoded from a VHS. Don’t worry, I’m not looking to replace my Atmos setup with it . This is purely a fun experiment to indulge my own curiosity, even if the sound isn’t discrete.

I’ve got a Lexicon CP-1 Pro Logic I processor and an original Yamaha DSP-1 (OG Dolby Surround) in my collection. I’m still in the process of pairing them with the appropriate amplifiers. Just as a hypothetical example, if someone were to say, ‘E.T. first hit VHS in 1982 and then got a re-release in 1988 after Pro Logic I was introduced,’ that’s precisely the kind of information I’m on the hunt for.

I would bet that actually they are the same mix and they just bunged the Prologic label on. I think it is likely, and far more likely than not, that they are all the same.
After all as the technology has developed the up-mixing from all two channel sources has improved by leaps and bounds. So my strong feeling is that you will just be looking at the progress in Up-mixer technology and nothing more.

I say that as I had those old so called codecs in my stand alone matrix unit. Compared to the new ones they were not very impressive, as it was all based on phase relationships in the analog domain. And really all of them were glorified Hafler units. That was the basis of all that pre-digital technology. If I think I'm telling you that you are tossing at wind mills you would be correct. Translation: - a waste of time money and effort.

 

[TheRealOC]

It's too bad there's not a Discogs for movies. That sounds like what you're after.

that would be very handy

 

[TheRealOC]

I would bet that actually they are the same mix and they just bunged the Prologic label on. I think it is likely, and far more likely than not, that they are all the same.
After all as the technology has developed the up-mixing from all two channel sources has improved by leaps and bounds. So my strong feeling is that you will just be looking at the progress in Up-mixer technology and nothing more.

I say that as I had those old so called codecs in my stand alone matrix unit. Compared to the new ones they were not very impressive, as it was all based on phase relationships in the analog domain. And really all of them were glorified Hafler units. That was the basis of all that pre-digital technology. If I think I'm telling you that you are tossing at wind mills you would be correct. Translation: - a waste of time money and effort.

I don’t what to tell you mate, it’s fun to me **shrugs**

 

[TLS Guy]

I don’t what to tell you mate, it’s fun to me **shrugs**

That dates you posted should have hit me right away. I can shed light on the issue for you.

1982 all VHS tapes only had a poor quality linear audio track at the edge. Audio quality was poor.

1987 was the year S-video was introduced. This was a stereo system based on a VHF algorithm and used audio heads on the rotating video drum. However the azimuth of the audio and video heads was 90 degrees apart. So the audio slices across the tape are 90 degrees opposed to each other.

This system worked very well and was capable of very high audio fidelity. I still have four S-video machines in working order.

So those Prologic VHS tapes will be S-video tapes. These tapes also have the linear very low quality audio track.

So, in order toe hear that Prologic audio track you will need an S-video machine.

Do you have an S-video machine? If not, you will need to find one.

 

[TLS Guy]

That dates you posted should have hit me right away. I can shed light on the issue for you.

1982 all VHS tapes only had a poor quality linear audio track at the edge. Audio quality was poor.

1987 was the year S-video was introduced. This was a stereo system based on a VHF algorithm and used audio heads on the rotating video drum. However the azimuth of the audio and video heads was 90 degrees apart. So the audio slices across the tape are 90 degrees opposed to each other.

This system worked very well and was capable of very high audio fidelity. I still have four S-video machines in working order.

So those Prologic VHS tapes will be S-video tapes. These tapes also have the linear very low quality audio track.

So, in order toe hear that Prologic audio track you will need an S-video machine.

Do you have an S-video machine? If not, you will need to find one.

I should add that those machines are often labelled and advertised as Hi-Fi VHS HD units. But if you want to experiment with one of those Prologic labelled VHS tapes you will need one of those machines, if you don't have one.

 

[TheRealOC]

@TLS Guy Thanks for breaking that down. I wasn't clear on the distinction between the older linear audio tracks and the improved Hi-Fi audio on VHS. So, to ensure I get the full Pro Logic experience from those tapes, I'll make sure to source a Hi-Fi VHS player.

 

[TLS Guy]

@TLS Guy Thanks for breaking that down. I wasn't clear on the distinction between the older linear audio tracks and the improved Hi-Fi audio on VHS. So, to ensure I get the full Pro Logic experience from those tapes, I'll make sure to source a Hi-Fi VHS player.

Thanks for that. Yes, you will need a Hi-Fi machine for sure. The audio in the standard tapes from the linear edge track is awful. The tape is too slow and the track width too small. The audio of the machines with the audio on the spinning drum actually is as good as the finest pro 1/2 track reel to reel machines running at 15 ips. I can tell you that as I, own and used, in years past pro reel to reel machines at 15 ips for outside broadcast work of orchestras and choirs. I still have those machines.

So the SQ is superior to LP, cassette, and 1/4 track reel to reel machines. The reason being that with the audio coming off the spinning video drum, but different heads to the video, amounts to a very high tape speed. The speed of the tape past the heads is one of the biggest determinants of SQ with magnetic tape recording. So that system is capable of full audio frequency range without any dynamic compression or loss of HF from tape saturation. A reel to reel or any other linear magnets tape system will only have a linear frequency response at -10db modulation. You can not get a linear response at 0db modulation without using full track. (0125") at 15 or 30 ips. So that means 1/4" tape for 2 track stereo.

The stereo from those spinning heads by the way used the same technology as multiplex FM stereo broadcasting, as it is an entirely analog system. Many now think it is a digital system, but is is not. However Sony did invent a digital system for recoding digital audio on the video heads. This is possible because the video bandwidth is so high. Digital encoder/decoders were produced by Sony and Sansui. I used the Sansui decoder. The problem was that editing was not possible, so you had to make a reel to reel master for the broadcast tape. The advantage was that the equipment was smaller and lighter on location. Then you only had one analog tape, as the master was on a VHS tape in digital format. With an analog reel to reel master you have to make a dub to edit for the broadcast master or send for LP or CD mastering.
I still have all this in working order. Probably the last of the rigs of that era still in working order.

In the picture below you can see the Two Panasonic professional Hi-Fi VHS recorders. those are the two identical units top left. The Sansui digital coder/decoder is on the right of the second shelf, along with its power supply right next to it.

 

[snakeeyes]

Think they called them S-VHS, Super VHS. Wiki states 1987 as the release. But they also called them Hifi VHS if I remember correctly.

S Video is a video cable used on DVD players to the TV in the 1990s with slightly better resolution than RCA video cable. It’s nothing to do with the audio signal. I think combo VHS/DVD may have had S Video for the DVD video only.

 

[Trebdp83]

JVC introduced S-Video equipped VCRs in the 80’s. Not all HiFi VCRs had S-Video ports.

Many VCRs and laserdisc players had composite and S-Video ports and component video ports would come around with DVDs.

 

[snakeeyes]

Ok that makes sense. But s video cables never did any audio. Audio was separate cabling.

 

[Trebdp83]

Right, it was only for video.