Audioquest Midnight -- anyone know the actual awg?

[Teetertotter?]

My cable is 16AWG, twisted pair, 99.9% pure copper, shielded and jacketed, and made in USA. The other thing is, I made sure there are nice ROUNDED bends, where required. O, my speaker wire was free, from a large commercial electrical contractor, where my son has been employed the last 25 years. They use this type wire in different gauges, for all electronic/telecommunications, in a commercial environment. My son gave me 3/4 of a 1000 foot roll. 413106 | Windy City Wire the Low-Voltage Cable Management Specialists (smartwire.com) wcw_413106.pdf (smartwire.com)

 

[j_garcia]

The 2 conductors connected to the DBS, i.e supplied with 72V DC, form an ELECTRIC field of radial polarisation (one pole being in the center, the other like a shield wrapping around the centre pole and the 2 or more signal conductors), which in the isolator (dielectric) causes dielectric displacement (like in a capacitor) of a static type; when the cable transmits voltage to the speaker, the voltage between the LS cable conductors causes an alternating dielectric displacement (which is a vector field) which superposes with static dielectric displacement from the 72V DC, and then it gets a bit vague why this would be of advantage (could be the offset alone, or is it saturation???). If I understand correctly AQ seem to pretend now a polarized dielectric in turn affects the charges next the the conductor, once the signal reduces its amplitude or changes its sign. Or possibly I argue that, because that is quite normal and nothing new at all. And, if I understand correctly, a statically polarised insulator would for some reason show less of this effect on the conductors transmitting the music carrying voltage signal (linear territory still?) i.e react more like an ideal matter-free isolator. That I guess is how AQ argues their idea does something good.

At the end of the day, whatever their claims are, is it actually audible? If so, is it worth the stupid amount they want to charge for something they basically cannot prove after decades?

I own AQ interconnects which I bought from a company that sold overstock of those cables so far less expensive than retail. After comparing them to other quality built and less expensive cables I also own, I don't hear a difference.

2 points:
1. it is the first time I am in here.
2. do you follow the advise the original author of this table wants to give? For example my speakers dip down to about 3 ohms, cable length is 8ft --> so half way between gauge 18 and 21? really? that is about 0.5mm^2 (minimum, admittedly). I'd multiply that with about factor 6 to 8. You may not need that to hear some music, but on many amps factor 8 will sound VERY different from what is recommended above.

A "comfort" factor (not really a safety factor) that you've chosen arbitrarily would not fall into the category of functional or necessary for the delivery of that electricity without degradation. Does that mean we're all using 20AWG wire? Of course not, but that becomes more of a "what is commonly easy to purchase" vs. "I need 12AWG or this won't work".

 

[TLS Guy]

2 points:
1. it is the first time I am in here.
2. do you follow the advise the original author of this table wants to give? For example my speakers dip down to about 3 ohms, cable length is 8ft --> so half way between gauge 18 and 21? really? that is about 0.5mm^2 (minimum, admittedly). I'd multiply that with about factor 6 to 8. You may not need that to hear some music, but on many amps factor 8 will sound VERY different from what is recommended above.

Please find another site to pester people. All you write is pseudoscientific gibberish that is of zero significance. You have already provided enough clinical data for me to be able to extend my diagnosis. Yes, you are in need of professional help.

 

[lovinthehd]

@bh72 curious, how did you come to assign such beliefs for speaker cable initially? Why do you assign so much importance to marketing gibberish from fraudioquest?

 

[bh72]

Please find another site to pester people. All you write is pseudoscientific gibberish that is of zero significance. You have already provided enough clinical data for me to be able to extend my diagnosis. Yes, you are in need of professional help.

so, using your table is .. not ok or not scientific?

 

[bh72]

@bh72 curious, how did you come to assign such beliefs for speaker cable initially? Why do you assign so much importance to marketing gibberish from fraudioquest?

pls indicate what "beliefs" you refer to. I do assign importance to the sound, not marketing lingua, I have enough education (masters in physics) to question marketing "gibberish". Ah, yes, I probably start off with allowing for the possibility that it isnt actually marketing gibberish, while it well may be. If you have read my parts about DBS you may have read doubts here or there.

 

[lovinthehd]

pls indicate what "beliefs" you refer to. I do assign importance to the sound, not marketing lingua, I have enough education (masters in physics) to question marketing "gibberish". Ah, yes, I probably start off with allowing for the possibility that it isnt actually marketing gibberish, while it well may be. If you have read my parts about DBS you may have read doubts here or there.

Not the beliefs you have particularly, more how you acquired them. What initially gave you the idea you needed special wires, especially particularly expensive wires, to improve the sound? Who put that thought in your head? Did you do any consumer research? Scientific research?

We talking science or just some sort of consumer's fantasy?

My grandfather was a highly regarded ee and was in the business of audio in many ways over the years...he clued me in a long time ago that zipcord works just fine if appropriate gauge/length are taken care of, and not to fall for idiotic audiophile crap about wire....now if you want pretty wire, or like word salad encouragement to consume them, feel free, but unless you can come up with some real science here, mr physics guy, as to something solid along the lines of audible differences except for you anecdotal story here....

 

[NINaudio]

Anyway I found the cable to be remarkably clear and well resolved, rather comparable to the PR8 of Kimber, but more begning with its higher inducatance and WAY lower capacitanc, also more balanced, i.e not too much treble, not too little, well balanced mids, and quite a strong foundation (bass). Waayy better than any cheap cable I've used before.

This whole paragraph is what you believe this cable is doing for you. I believe that Lovin might be asking particularly about the items in bold.

 

[bh72]

This whole paragraph is what you believe this cable is doing for you. I believe that Lovin might be asking particularly about the items in bold.

It is an impression I got with the AQ midnight+, having used a "generic" LS cable for several years in my system, so in some way my impressions were different from original poster's impression of a "dark" sound (which didn't entail questions).
is there an Audioholics approved vocabulary to describe impressions gained from listening to system in config A vs B? I fail to understand how one can get on in improving one's system if impressions would not be accepted. "Does the Mozart piano concert o K467 touch you more than before, because the dynamic expression comes across better, or is the piano now sounding too glassy to do that." I understand some replace such questions entirely with a 1kHz test tone Sinad measurement. I find cancelling out the main bit music does (touch, move..) would be a mistake. but that's me, not necessarily you. To me this appears like judging a sporty car by measured 0-100kph times only, not by how much fun it is to drive it around corners (development in industry equally emphasises on both qualities).

 

[Trell]

It is an impression I got with the AQ midnight+, having used a "generic" LS cable for several years in my system, so in some way my impressions were different from original poster's impression of a "dark" sound (which didn't entail questions).
is there an Audioholics approved vocabulary to describe impressions gained from listening to system in config A vs B? I fail to understand how one can get on in improving one's system if impressions would not be accepted. "Does the Mozart piano concert o K467 touch you more than before, because the dynamic expression comes across better, or is the piano now sounding too glassy to do that." I understand some replace such questions entirely with a 1kHz test tone Sinad measurement. I find cancelling out the main bit music does (touch, move..) would be a mistake. but that's me, not necessarily you. To me this appears like judging a sporty car by measured 0-100kph times only, not by how much fun it is to drive it around corners (development in industry equally emphasises on both qualities).

Here’s a very nice article on speaker wires. It’s a classic.

Speaker Wire

 

[NINaudio]

It is an impression I got with the AQ midnight+, having used a "generic" LS cable for several years in my system, so in some way my impressions were different from original poster's impression of a "dark" sound (which didn't entail questions).
is there an Audioholics approved vocabulary to describe impressions gained from listening to system in config A vs B? I fail to understand how one can get on in improving one's system if impressions would not be accepted. "Does the Mozart piano concert o K467 touch you more than before, because the dynamic expression comes across better, or is the piano now sounding too glassy to do that." I understand some replace such questions entirely with a 1kHz test tone Sinad measurement. I find cancelling out the main bit music does (touch, move..) would be a mistake. but that's me, not necessarily you. To me this appears like judging a sporty car by measured 0-100kph times only, not by how much fun it is to drive it around corners (development in industry equally emphasises on both qualities).

I honestly can't figure out what you're trying to say in the bolded sentence above.

As for everything else there are full range plus measurements of Audioquest cables against generic cables that show no difference in the signal they put through. No difference in bass, mids, or treble. Nothing at all to substantiate the claims anyone makes about fancy speaker cables. Claims that have never been substantiated in double blind tests either.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/audioquest-go-4-speaker-cable-review.37308/

In short, if you want to try and tell people that you believe/perceive/get the impression that one cable makes pianos sound "glassy" in comparison to another cable you're definitely on the wrong site.

The cables vs cars analogy is stupid. If you want to improve the performance of your car you do so by upgrading the engine, the brakes, the suspension, the tires, etc. You don't get improved performance by changing out the wires going from your ECU to the engine.

 

[bh72]

Here’s a very nice article on speaker wires. It’s a classic.

Speaker Wire

thanks for sharing. I know this text from long time ago. I believe most parts of this text is from the 90s, i.e. from the time the cables I am currently using (AQ Crystals). I have a hunch that even in cables things have moved forward from the times before internet. Some parts of the text are quite interesting (why things may sound different), some parts seem outdated (reference to some mid 90s cables), some bits seem hilarious (cable lifters, which seem to have gained attention over the years, rather than the opposite; I do not have any in use).

Mind you, I have a system that would be new around 10k (!! - I would never ever pay that amount, it is almost all second hand) and I use LS cables from around mid/late 90s ("true vintage", for perhaps 150USD). But they are from Audioquest, so that here, in this forum, I am put the camp of 'cable believers' (aka nutters, who need to be missioned, as thou shall not believe). In other forums, I expect I would be the odd one out, who seriously (!) believes he can pair such old surely entirely oxygenated (it is not) stuff with actually quite decent electronics from last decade. Well I beg to differ, the truth might be somewhere in the middle?

 

[bh72]

I honestly can't figure out what you're trying to say in the bolded sentence above.

As for everything else there are full range plus measurements of Audioquest cables against generic cables that show no difference in the signal they put through. No difference in bass, mids, or treble. Nothing at all to substantiate the claims anyone makes about fancy speaker cables. Claims that have never been substantiated in double blind tests either.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/audioquest-go-4-speaker-cable-review.37308/

In short, if you want to try and tell people that you believe/perceive/get the impression that one cable makes pianos sound "glassy" in comparison to another cable you're definitely on the wrong site.

The cables vs cars analogy is stupid. If you want to improve the performance of your car you do so by upgrading the engine, the brakes, the suspension, the tires, etc. You don't get improved performance by changing out the wires going from your ECU to the engine.

The glassy piano example is an example. Here I confess, I heard systems that sound more glassy then others. Yes. Even worse: there are real pianos out there that sound more glassy or less so. Think of Köln Concert.

The analogy to cars was in taking single criterion (one or very few measurements only), vs the drive test. In fact, I find it not a stupid comparison but apparently misunderstood, and it is not trivial but rather sophisticated to design a product that not only meets isolated easily measurable targets but creates very positive "vibes" when driving it.

 

[TLS Guy]

so, using your table is .. not ok or not scientific?

That table is based on calculation and observation of the relationship of the resistance of the cable to the impedance curve of the speaker, specifically the nadir of the curve. Yes, it is science but not rocket science. As I said that is ALL you need to know about speaker cables, the rest is fantasy.
Your posts make zero sense and your brain seems a bad place.

 

[highfigh]

2 points:
1. it is the first time I am in here.
2. do you follow the advise the original author of this table wants to give? For example my speakers dip down to about 3 ohms, cable length is 8ft --> so half way between gauge 18 and 21? really? that is about 0.5mm^2 (minimum, admittedly). I'd multiply that with about factor 6 to 8. You may not need that to hear some music, but on many amps factor 8 will sound VERY different from what is recommended above.

At 8' of length, don't worry about the gauge. Use the chart.

Before all of the cable BS started in the early-'80s, nobody cared about the wire gauge, batteries, special insulators, cable lifts or banana plugs. Then, the audio magazines and wackos started confusing people and they bought whatever was recommended, mainly because they didn't understand whether these things were needed or not and they didn't want people to look down on them for not having them. Next, came the condescension and insults like "Oh, you don't hear that?", "I guess your system isn't resolving enough", etc.

 

[highfigh]

The glassy piano example is an example. Here I confess, I heard systems that sound more glassy then others. Yes. Even worse: there are real pianos out there that sound more glassy or less so. Think of Köln Concert.

The analogy to cars was in taking single criterion (one or very few measurements only), vs the drive test. In fact, I find it not a stupid comparison but apparently misunderstood, and it is not trivial but rather sophisticated to design a product that not only meets isolated easily measurable targets but creates very positive "vibes" when driving it.

You're hearing the recording methods, not the cables.

Nice word salad.

 

[everettT]

thanks for sharing. I know this text from long time ago. I believe most parts of this text is from the 90s, i.e. from the time the cables I am currently using (AQ Crystals). I have a hunch that even in cables things have moved forward from the times before internet. Some parts of the text are quite interesting (why things may sound different), some parts seem outdated (reference to some mid 90s cables), some bits seem hilarious (cable lifters, which seem to have gained attention over the years, rather than the opposite; I do not have any in use).

How do you go forward from fully transparent and did you look at the measurements in the article I linked? This is really simple if the wire is of the significant gauge and length for one's speaker's impendence, there will be no audible effects on the sound of their speakers or the output from their amp.

Buy whatever cables you want, just don't expect other people to buy the marketing claims without valid 3rd party measurements to verify and in this case we have provided such measurements.

If one is concerned about their speaker cables, just buy Belden and you're guaranteed to get a well made cable that measures as it should.

 

[bh72]

You're hearing the recording methods, not the cables.

Nice word salad.

because cables are perfect components, right?

 

[Trell]

The dude is just trolling.

 

[bh72]

How do you go forward from fully transparent and did you look at the measurements in the article I linked? This is really simple if the wire is of the significant gauge and length for one's speaker's impendence, there will be no audible effects on the sound of their speakers or the output from their amp.

Buy whatever cables you want, just don't expect other people to buy the marketing claims without valid 3rd party measurements to verify and in this case we have provided such measurements.

If one is concerned about their speaker cables, just buy Belden and you're guaranteed to get a well made cable that measures as it should.

"How do you go forward from fully transparent " --> I guess that is the happy zone we all want to have our system
tx for your interesting comments, I am not entirely convinced about Amir's measurements that do not involve my speakers nor my amp. So I rather trust my ears. Should I replace my very old AQ speaker cables I will consider Belden, a serious company and with v. good value / price ratio, definitely. But, for me, the final test (keep or return?) is not a measurement by Amir; the proof of the pudding is in the eating, i.e. whether I like my music more or less than with the AQ. And it could well be that I would not notice any difference at all.