Audioquest Midnight -- anyone know the actual awg?

[everettT]

But, but, but, is that midnight the same as the Go4?

Good point Every measurement I've seen of their products, including dacs, has either shown no improvement or decreased performance with speaker cables and with their dacs, just poor performance for insane pricing ($400 for a USB dongle, smh).

 

[Swerd]

Oh Hell, another nutter has wondered in. I'm not in the mood for that at present.

I can understand why you don't feel up to the effort of facing yet another misguided audiphool, but I think it comes with the territory. I'm glad to see that enough of the AH regulars have stepped up while you recuperate.

AudioHolics is a website with the reputation of denying absurdly wrong audiophile claims. These "nutters" occasionally show up to demonstrate their bravery by facing the lions in their den. Apparently, they can earn audiophile merit badges this way. I like to see this a modern form of counting coup (see below).

Among the Plains Indians of North America, counting coup is the warrior tradition of winning prestige against an enemy in battle. Historically, any blow struck against the enemy counted as a coup, but the most prestigious acts included touching an enemy warrior with a hand, bow, or coup stick and escaping unharmed, and without harming the enemy, except for the enemy's wounded pride.

Counting coup - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Trell]

I can understand why you don't feel up to the effort of facing yet another misguided audiphool, but I think it comes with the territory. I'm glad to see that enough of the AH regulars have stepped up while you recuperate.

AudioHolics is a website with the reputation of denying absurdly wrong audiophile claims. These "nutters" occasionally show up to demonstrate their bravery by facing the lions in their den. Apparently, they can earn audiophile merit badges this way. I like to see this a modern form of counting coup (see below).

Counting coup - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well, the Indian warrior had to show courage by risking his life but that’s not something I think applies to some anonymous keyboard warrior extolling audiophool nonsense.

 

[j_garcia]

But, but, but, is that midnight the same as the Go4?

Same stupidity? Yes.

 

[bh72]

I read the term nutter asf. thanks for that.

Are you guys hearing differences between literally any 2 pairs of speaker cable at all?

 

[Swerd]

Well, the Indian warrior had to show courage by risking his life but that’s not something I think applies to some anonymous keyboard warrior extolling audiophool nonsense.

That would be the rational explanation. But, rational is not meaningful to some one who listens to speaker cables.

 

[Trell]

I read the term nutter asf. thanks for that.

Are you guys hearing differences between literally any 2 pairs of speaker cable at all?

Not with a wire gauge appropriate for the speaker impedance and length of speaker cable.

 

[bh72]

Here is a measurement AQ vs a generic speaker cable. At $600 you can purchase a lot of music instead.

Audioquest GO-4 Speaker Cable Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the AudioQuest GO-4 speaker cable. It is on kind loan from a member and costs about US $599. The attached dongle is a 72 volt battery supply that feeds an unterminated wire the length of the cable. Different terminations can be ordered. Here are...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Mind the AQ Midnight is like 20 years older than the Go-4, its quite conventional and has like 3.5 times higher cross section, way higher L but lower C, and no DBS (which you all know exactly what it does or not), so a fairly simple vintage cable you get for 200 bucks or less on ebay (I got them for ca 100$ like 15 years ago, 5m pair; I call that price worthy, regardless of make or type). Ah, I see, its from AQ, hence it must be very baad.

3 further comments to the linked article:
1) I like the set of measurements shown, do we know this set of measurements shapes a comprehensive (dare I say complete) picture of what is relevant to sound quality? if so care to share a link where this is scientifically proven?
2) Am asking because in (almost) all measurements shown, the 2 cables compared have practically identical results which might indicate shown measurements might actually be irrelevant to the subject (like measuring falling time in vaccum).
3) Also in the name of Science: shouldn't the Materials & Methods be referenced appropriately? What is this cable called "Generic"? where can I buy it? Specs? Foto?

 

[bh72]

Not with a wire gauge appropriate for the speaker impedance and length of speaker cable.

I would say one can hear a difference even within "appropriate" range of gauge. Well I did the test and I do (in my system)

 

[Trell]

I would say one can hear a difference even within "appropriate" range of gauge. Well I did the test and I do (in my system)

All claims, like yours, have been proven wrong once a proper test protocol is used. There is literally decades on testing claims like yours.

 

[everettT]

Mind the AQ Midnight is like 20 years older than the Go-4, its quite conventional and has like 3.5 times higher cross section, way higher L but lower C, and no DBS (which you all know exactly what it does or not), so a fairly simple vintage cable you get for 200 bucks or less on ebay (I got them for ca 100$ like 15 years ago, 5m pair; I call that price worthy, regardless of make or type). Ah, I see, its from AQ, hence it must be very baad.

3 further comments to the linked article:
1) I like the set of measurements shown, do we know this set of measurements shapes a comprehensive (dare I say complete) picture of what is relevant to sound quality? if so care to share a link where this is scientifically proven?
2) Am asking because in (almost) all measurements shown, the 2 cables compared have practically identical results which might indicate shown measurements might actually be irrelevant to the subject (like measuring falling time in vaccum).
3) Also in the name of Science: shouldn't the Materials & Methods be referenced appropriately? What is this cable called "Generic"? where can I buy it? Specs? Foto?

Ok, here is the measurements of ones with the DBS. Also, if you don't understand what generic means and assume it needs a name brand to be defined, that's not on me. I'm guessing since he has done measurements of several cheap brands, he used one of those ie "Walmart" speaker cable.

AudioQuest Victoria Audio Cable with DBS Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the AudioQuest Victoria Audio interconnect with "dielectric-bias system" (DBS). It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $299. The configuration I received is unusual in the way it has RCA connector at one end and some kind of 5-pin at...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[bh72]

Ok, here is the measurements of ones with the DBS. Also, if you don't understand what generic means and assume it needs a name brand to be defined, that's not on me. I'm guessing since he has done measurements of several cheap brands, he used one of those ie "Walmart" speaker cable.

AudioQuest Victoria Audio Cable with DBS Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the AudioQuest Victoria Audio interconnect with "dielectric-bias system" (DBS). It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $299. The configuration I received is unusual in the way it has RCA connector at one end and some kind of 5-pin at...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Now the term "Science" necessitates for any other person to be put into the position to repeat described experiments. Thus it is not subject to debate to state all relevant information of the control cable.
A Generic LS cable for sure has a cross section, a conductor and isolation material, a "geometry", a number of strands, and a certain length I suppose.

 

[Eppie]

I read the term nutter asf. thanks for that.

Are you guys hearing differences between literally any 2 pairs of speaker cable at all?

Only in extreme cases where the gauge is undersized or the length is very long. For the typical 10 foot speaker cable 12 or 14 gauge stranded copper will sound the same as any exotic cable. This comes up quite regularly, but what people are experiencing is expectation bias, or the placebo effect. When you spend lots of money on a cable, you expect it to sound better so your mind tricks you into thinking so. That's why it's so hard to convince some people that these cables are a waste of money. Double blind tests and measurements like those on ASR have shown that these cables make no audible or measurable difference, and sometimes make things even worse, like the powered AQ cables that Audioholics tested.

These false claims lead to products like Brillient Pebbles:
https://kirkville.com/how-hi-fi-magazines-write-about-cables-part-19-magic-rocks/
Yes, there are people that actually bought into this nonsense.

 

[bh72]

Only in extreme cases where the gauge is undersized or the length is very long. For the typical 10 foot speaker cable 12 or 14 gauge stranded copper will sound the same as any exotic cable. This comes up quite regularly, but what people are experiencing is expectation bias, or the placebo effect. When you spend lots of money on a cable, you expect it to sound better so your mind tricks you into thinking so. That's why it's so hard to convince some people that these cables are a waste of money. Double blind tests and measurements like those on ASR have shown that these cables make no audible or measurable difference, and sometimes make things even worse, like the powered AQ cables that Audioholics tested.

These false claims lead to products like Brillient Pebbles:
https://kirkville.com/how-hi-fi-magazines-write-about-cables-part-19-magic-rocks/
Yes, there are people that actually bought into this nonsense.

I get you with the pebbles. Thats absurd. The DBS isn't "powered" there is supposed to be an electric field, no current (remember that is an isolator). I do not have experience on DBS on LS cables.

 

[TLS Guy]

I read the term nutter asf. thanks for that.

Are you guys hearing differences between literally any 2 pairs of speaker cable at all?

That is the right term.

Choosing speaker cables is the simplest task in audio. The only thing that matters is the relationship of the resistance of the cable to the impedance of the load. As long as the resistance of the cable is below 5% of the lowest impedance point of the speaker impedance curve, it does not matter what the cable is made of.
I use copper as it is an excellent conductor and not unduly expensive. I do check the resistance of the cables, and make sure they are well within the above limits.
If the resistance of the cable is too high, then it tends to follow the impedance curve of the speaker. When I have encountered those "loony" cables, they tend to have higher resistance per foot than cheaper orthodox offerings.

The table below shows you ALL you need to know about speaker cables.

That is ALL you need to know about speaker cables. The rest is superstition.

And yes, obsessing about cables, and conjuring up spurious physical properties in your mind, is in the spectrum of mental disorders. It belongs in the grouping of the obsessive compulsive disorders. So I in no way retract my "nutter" remark. It is the old saw of "If the shoe fits." These disorders are by far away the commonest encountered in the field of metal health. That is why we get individuals like you wandering in here so often.

 

[isolar8001]

So....Did Horton really hear those Whos, or was he just trippin' ?

 

[highfigh]

I have used the AQ Midnight (+) for some time, and I find the tone here in this forum quite funny to say the least. I can hardly imagine el cheapo zip wire would sound remotely as good as the AQ-M.
Rearranging the 14 wires as you like might not only change inductance and capacitance but also another thing: the return wires are coated in a sheath that contains some amount of carbon particles, and according to AQ this reduces the pick up of EMI (and connecting the poles in inverted position on both speaker and amp confirms that there is something to it). In turn, this means you cannot connect the wires in a zig zag pattern to maximise cap and minimise inductance as this would (nearly) short the conductors (or the amp output stage). in reality there is a ca 60 ohm remaining resistance between the individual return (-) conductors of the cable, so probably not too bad, but if you carelessly connect a few in parallel you might have another complex and very relevant impedance (the cable) next to your speaker.
Anyway I found the cable to be remarkably clear and well resolved, rather comparable to the PR8 of Kimber, but more begning with its higher inducatance and WAY lower capacitanc, also more balanced, i.e not too much treble, not too little, well balanced mids, and quite a strong foundation (bass). Waayy better than any cheap cable I've used before.

Define 'well resolved', especially WRT speaker wire.

 

[highfigh]

I get you with the pebbles. Thats absurd. The DBS isn't "powered" there is supposed to be an electric field, no current (remember that is an isolator). I do not have experience on DBS on LS cables.

When current is measurable on a conductor, a magnetic field is created but simply applying voltage to a conductor doesn't mean electrons are moving, it means the voltage source is connected and therefore, no magnetic field is created because the conductor(s) don't form a circuit. If you read their info, it shows that the wires connected to the battery pack and the ends aren't connected to the + or - conductors, so it would be similar to taking a piece of wire, cutting it at the chosen point, connecting batteries and making it part of the cable.

This could conceivably work if they were using active shielding, but they aren't- they claim it reduces or eliminates cable break in which is complete BS.

If you know any Electrical Engineers pr Physicists, ask for their thoughts- they'll likely make sounds like a dog that sees something it doesn't understand, as I mentioned before.

No Current, no field. Maybe enough to cause a compass needle to deflect, but what would it be doing for the signal in these cables?

Maybe someone needs to see if it will actually cause a compass needle to deflect- I know that magnetic fields and actual magnets can cause this- some marine speaker info shows 'Compass-friendly distance' and I have checked this on some boats but not with cables.

 

[bh72]

When current is measurable on a conductor, a magnetic field is created but simply applying voltage to a conductor doesn't mean electrons are moving, it means the voltage source is connected and therefore, no magnetic field is created because the conductor(s) don't form a circuit. If you read their info, it shows that the wires connected to the battery pack and the ends aren't connected to the + or - conductors, so it would be similar to taking a piece of wire, cutting it at the chosen point, connecting batteries and making it part of the cable.

This could conceivably work if they were using active shielding, but they aren't- they claim it reduces or eliminates cable break in which is complete BS.

If you know any Electrical Engineers pr Physicists, ask for their thoughts- they'll likely make sounds like a dog that sees something it doesn't understand, as I mentioned before.

No Current, no field. Maybe enough to cause a compass needle to deflect, but what would it be doing for the signal in these cables?

Maybe someone needs to see if it will actually cause a compass needle to deflect- I know that magnetic fields and actual magnets can cause this- some marine speaker info shows 'Compass-friendly distance' and I have checked this on some boats but not with cables.

The 2 conductors connected to the DBS, i.e supplied with 72V DC, form an ELECTRIC field of radial polarisation (one pole being in the center, the other like a shield wrapping around the centre pole and the 2 or more signal conductors), which in the isolator (dielectric) causes dielectric displacement (like in a capacitor) of a static type; when the cable transmits voltage to the speaker, the voltage between the LS cable conductors causes an alternating dielectric displacement (which is a vector field) which superposes with static dielectric displacement from the 72V DC, and then it gets a bit vague why this would be of advantage (could be the offset alone, or is it saturation???). If I understand correctly AQ seem to pretend now a polarized dielectric in turn affects the charges next the the conductor, once the signal reduces its amplitude or changes its sign. Or possibly I argue that, because that is quite normal and nothing new at all. And, if I understand correctly, a statically polarised insulator would for some reason show less of this effect on the conductors transmitting the music carrying voltage signal (linear territory still?) i.e react more like an ideal matter-free isolator. That I guess is how AQ argues their idea does something good.

 

[bh72]

That is the right term.

Choosing speaker cables is the simplest task in audio. The only thing that matters is the relationship of the resistance of the cable to the impedance of the load. As long as the resistance of the cable is below 5% of the lowest impedance point of the speaker impedance curve, it does not matter what the cable is made of.
I use copper as it is an excellent conductor and not unduly expensive. I do check the resistance of the cables, and make sure they are well within the above limits.
If the resistance of the cable is too high, then it tends to follow the impedance curve of the speaker. When I have encountered those "loony" cables, they tend to have higher resistance per foot than cheaper orthodox offerings.

The table below shows you ALL you need to know about speaker cables.

That is ALL you need to know about speaker cables. The rest is superstition.

And yes, obsessing about cables, and conjuring up spurious physical properties in your mind, is in the spectrum of mental disorders. It belongs in the grouping of the obsessive compulsive disorders. So I in no way retract my "nutter" remark. It is the old saw of "If the shoe fits." These disorders are by far away the commonest encountered in the field of metal health. That is why we get individuals like you wandering in here so often.

2 points:
1. it is the first time I am in here.
2. do you follow the advise the original author of this table wants to give? For example my speakers dip down to about 3 ohms, cable length is 8ft --> so half way between gauge 18 and 21? really? that is about 0.5mm^2 (minimum, admittedly). I'd multiply that with about factor 6 to 8. You may not need that to hear some music, but on many amps factor 8 will sound VERY different from what is recommended above.