What makes people belive so much in cables?

[Mr84]

Hi,
I am new here, but have had many HT in my life, and it is a big interest of mine.
And usually for fun, i am checking on forums and usually want to scream while i laugh to people that buys 20k ethernet cables, and they can hear a difference.

What makes people belive that digital data can make any difference at all in audio? How can the whole world function with advanced databases and full Datacenters with extreme data transfer speed and accuracy, but when it comes to sound, it is impossible to convince them?

I have tried, others have tried to do it, but it is impossible.

I can get their reasoning in for example speaker cables (make no misstake i use off the shelf speaker cables, and there is no dufference) but when it comes to pure digital data, there is only 2 values, it is either 1 or 0 there is no in between.

They even discuss what optical cable to use instead of ethernet at home. And they can hear a difference in optical cables too.

My blood pressure is rising, and how can people that in many cases probably are pretty smart (many of them seem to have deep pockets, so i assume they have/had decent careers) be so stupid when it comes to audio? Like it is something magic that happens. Have they ever seen a recording studio? What cables they use?

I was just browsing here, and my mind and blood pressure could not take it anymore when i could see the thread about optical cables:

Cables

Interconnects, speaker, digital, power.

forum.psaudio.com

Even "breaking in" optical cables?

Fiber Optic recommendation?

I own several generic CAT5e, 6, 6a and CAT7 cables, as well as Audioquest Pearl and Supra CAT8. They all sound different. Yauhody CAT8 is my favourite of these; a bit chocolatey, organic, with great warmth and power, decent detail and transparency. I have invariably preferred Yauhody over Supra C...

audiophilestyle.com

I have tried to take the discussion there, but that is not "allowed" and i needed to vent and i am sorry it happend to be here. But maybe someone here have any inside information/knowledge of why? How can an optical data cable make the sound "insert some magic Word"? It is impossible.

And how can it be allowed to market for example ethernet cables that sells only on describing what it does for sound? It is false advertising.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

There's a sucker born every minute.
Including in government: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/07/dc-fits-fleet-of-evs-with-bogus-gadget-promising-60-range-boost/

Good background read for further education on why people keep falling for such nonsense:

Voodoo Science

and the classic Roger Russel's Speaker Wire post:

Speaker Wire

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi,
I am new here, but have had many HT in my life, and it is a big interest of mine.
And usually for fun, i am checking on forums and usually want to scream while i laugh to people that buys 20k ethernet cables, and they can hear a difference.

What makes people belive that digital data can make any difference at all in audio? How can the whole world function with advanced databases and full Datacenters with extreme data transfer speed and accuracy, but when it comes to sound, it is impossible to convince them?

I have tried, others have tried to do it, but it is impossible.

I can get their reasoning in for example speaker cables (make no misstake i use off the shelf speaker cables, and there is no dufference) but when it comes to pure digital data, there is only 2 values, it is either 1 or 0 there is no in between.

They even discuss what optical cable to use instead of ethernet at home. And they can hear a difference in optical cables too.

My blood pressure is rising, and how can people that in many cases probably are pretty smart (many of them seem to have deep pockets, so i assume they have/had decent careers) be so stupid when it comes to audio? Like it is something magic that happens. Have they ever seen a recording studio? What cables they use?

I was just browsing here, and my mind and blood pressure could not take it anymore when i could see the thread about optical cables:

Cables

Interconnects, speaker, digital, power.

forum.psaudio.com

Even "breaking in" optical cables?

Fiber Optic recommendation?

I own several generic CAT5e, 6, 6a and CAT7 cables, as well as Audioquest Pearl and Supra CAT8. They all sound different. Yauhody CAT8 is my favourite of these; a bit chocolatey, organic, with great warmth and power, decent detail and transparency. I have invariably preferred Yauhody over Supra C...

audiophilestyle.com

I have tried to take the discussion there, but that is not "allowed" and i needed to vent and i am sorry it happend to be here. But maybe someone here have any inside information/knowledge of why? How can an optical data cable make the sound "insert some magic Word"? It is impossible.

And how can it be allowed to market for example ethernet cables that sells only on describing what it does for sound? It is false advertising.

These people are basically ideological rigid thinkers. They are incapable of logical reasoning and refuse to even learn the the science of the basics of sound reproduction. Basically they are believers in magic.

But if you argue with a lunatic you will always get the worst of it.

 

[Eppie]

You can also look up the terms "placebo effect" and "expectation bias" and maybe read up on psychoacoustics. Basically, if someone convinces themselves that a cable is going to make a difference, their mind will give the perception that it is different, regardless of whether or not science shows that there is in fact no difference. Companies selling these cables are preying on the hopes of people chasing audio nirvana but you will never find any double blind tests to substantiate their claims. Sometimes it's the rich who convince themselves that if you spend enough money it must be better and they like the bragging rights. As they say, a sucker is born every minute.

 

[Mr84]

Thank you for the interesting read!.
Yes they are lunatics, but there is so much other things in the world that attracts people with too much money, but when it comes to audio it seems like all critical thinking goes out the window completly.

There is so much logical failure in the reasoning, so i have to wonder if they really belive it face to face in a real discussion?
People would think they are mad?

 

[Mr84]

You can also look up the terms "placebo effect" and "expectation bias" and maybe read up on psychoacoustics. Basically, if someone convinces themselves that a cable is going to make a difference, their mind will give the perception that it is different, regardless of whether or not science shows that there is in fact no difference. Companies selling these cables are preying on the hopes of people chasing audio nirvana but you will never find any double blind tests to substantiate their claims. Sometimes it's the rich who convince themselves that if you spend enough money it must be better and they like the bragging rights. As they say, a sucker is born every minute.

Yes i have read up on placebo, but in medicine when the trial is over, and you get your answer (placebo or not) when you get the fact, you acknowledge that what you tought was happening was indeed impossible (placebo) and you move on, with some new lessons learned.

But when it comes to something so well studied and used, like cables (even 600$ fuses!!!) and especially digital, where there is physically impossible to begin with, there is no room atleast not for me, for placebo to even "begin".

If you knew before you got the placebo medicine, you would never feel it doing anything.

The logic does make zero sense.

I have no problem with a billionaire buying cables for 500k (that is like 10$ for a normal person) and buy it like diamond or a watch.

But when they discuss digital cables, and even fuses how they can change the sound. It is absurd.

 

[ryanosaur]

Hope springs eternal.

*shrugs

 

[Mr84]

Hope springs eternal.

*shrugs

Yeah i need to shrug this off soon, before i get a heart problem, from the increase in bloodpressure.

It is interesting, fun, and gets me angry at the same time.

I have to wonder what other businesses then cables for audio get away, with very expensive "things" with no data (some is even worse then what you can find in the trash) to back their claims, and people buy it anyway. It should be false advertising in my book, maybe you can report it to some agency?

 

[ryanosaur]

I have to wonder what other businesses then cables for audio get away, with very expensive "things" with no data (some is even worse then what you can find in the trash) to back their claims, and people buy it anyway. It should be false advertising in my book, maybe you can report it to some agency?

How expensive of an OPAmp would you like to insert into your Buffer Board on a Class D Amp that is already Neutral and Accurate?

Perhaps we should start talking about Tube Rolling?

*blushes

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeah i need to shrug this off soon, before i get a heart problem, from the increase in bloodpressure.

It is interesting, fun, and gets me angry at the same time.

I have to wonder what other businesses then cables for audio get away, with very expensive "things" with no data (some is even worse then what you can find in the trash) to back their claims, and people buy it anyway. It should be false advertising in my book, maybe you can report it to some agency?

We just had an atrocious case four days ago, where some bloke was pedaling this tube amp.
Zesto Bia 200 Select power amplifier

The seller claimed it was the best amp he had ever owned before editing his post to sold. He was selling it half price which was around $7000.00. It sold promptly but not from this site.

 

[Mikado463]

You can also look up the terms "placebo effect" and "expectation bias" and maybe read up on psychoacoustics.

your one sentence sums it up in a nutshell !

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

People are nukkin futz.

 

[Kleinst]

Yeah i need to shrug this off soon, before i get a heart problem, from the increase in bloodpressure.

It is interesting, fun, and gets me angry at the same time.

I have to wonder what other businesses then cables for audio get away, with very expensive "things" with no data (some is even worse then what you can find in the trash) to back their claims, and people buy it anyway. It should be false advertising in my book, maybe you can report it to some agency?

Understand cables and glad to hear everyone confirming on this one.

What about power amplifiers above a certain quality level? Say my Monolith 7x for example, if I buy a more expensive AMP rated 200WPC is it fools gold? Is that a totally other bucket that's apples and oranges?

 

[everettT]

Understand cables and glad to hear everyone confirming on this one.

What about power amplifiers above a certain quality level? Say my Monolith 7x for example, if I buy a more expensive AMP rated 200WPC is it fools gold? Is that a totally other bucket that's apples and oranges?

There isn't a category in audio that someone doesn't charge an arm and leg for a product or push some wild claims that justifies it's price. The only thing you're gonna gain with another 200wpc amp are: better or worse specs, better or worse reliability, and maybe a feature or two.

I wouldn't have a problem with any amp that ATI OEMs as being a good amp (at this point in time), so your Monolith, IMHO, is very satisfactory. Can you get a better specd amp, sure, are you gonna notice a difference, not likely unless you have insanely high sensitivity horns and need a dead silent noise floor and even then people will buy an overpriced boutique amp and not achieve their goal with their ears but in their mind.

 

[Teetertotter?]

@Mr84, are you over your Temper Tantrum?.......lol Is your mind now clear, from expressing your displeasure? Is it off your chest and can think of something else.....lol Life is very interesting.

 

[Eppie]

Understand cables and glad to hear everyone confirming on this one.

What about power amplifiers above a certain quality level? Say my Monolith 7x for example, if I buy a more expensive AMP rated 200WPC is it fools gold? Is that a totally other bucket that's apples and oranges?

That gets a little more complicated, especially with multi-channel amps. It requires a really beefy power supply to run all 7 channels at rated power, which is why we see so many AVR manufacturers quote power at only 2 channels driven. So some amps will run better than others with all channels driven. I would also suspect that different classes of amplifiers would behave slightly differently when pushed to clipping. These are extreme cases though.

Most amps have a ruler flat frequency response, so they should not colour the sound in any way. What gets harder to describe is head room. There are benefits to having extra power available to handle transients but at what point does the lack of head room become audible?

 

[ryanosaur]

Understand cables and glad to hear everyone confirming on this one.

What about power amplifiers above a certain quality level? Say my Monolith 7x for example, if I buy a more expensive AMP rated 200WPC is it fools gold? Is that a totally other bucket that's apples and oranges?

Also regarding Amps, once you find ones that are delivering clean power for your needs and above a certain threshold in distortion, there really aren't many other gains to be had in climbing further up the ladder of SOTA gear.
I changed out my Outlaw 2200 Monoblocks for Hypex NC400 based amplification (also monoblocks). While the NC400s rate higher, there was no change in SQ... nor did I expect to find any.
There's nothing wrong with going after good equipment, but you have to decide for yourself what is good enough.
FWIW, the Monolith Amps are pretty well respected. Will you ever actually need to send 200w to all seven channels at the same time? No. Yet having the capability and knowing the Amp can deliver is a nice feeling to have! Once you have that security blanket, there really isn't anything more to chase after...

...until you start looking at new Speakers or you decide it's time to upgrade the AVR...

 

[Trell]

Also regarding Amps, once you find ones that are delivering clean power for your needs and above a certain threshold in distortion, there really aren't many other gains to be had in climbing further up the ladder of SOTA gear.

There is also noise to consider in an amp.

 

[ryanosaur]

There is also noise to consider in an amp.

I was lumping that in with the distortion comment...

I'm only on my first espresso when I wrote that.
Second is in me now.
1 more and I may be able to begin human-ing somewhat passably.

 

[Kleinst]

Also regarding Amps, once you find ones that are delivering clean power for your needs and above a certain threshold in distortion, there really aren't many other gains to be had in climbing further up the ladder of SOTA gear.
I changed out my Outlaw 2200 Monoblocks for Hypex NC400 based amplification (also monoblocks). While the NC400s rate higher, there was no change in SQ... nor did I expect to find any.
There's nothing wrong with going after good equipment, but you have to decide for yourself what is good enough.
FWIW, the Monolith Amps are pretty well respected. Will you ever actually need to send 200w to all seven channels at the same time? No. Yet having the capability and knowing the Amp can deliver is a nice feeling to have! Once you have that security blanket, there really isn't anything more to chase after...

...until you start looking at new Speakers or you decide it's time to upgrade the AVR...

Thanks, It's helpful to hear your experience in changing out the 2200's with the Hypex. That confirms some of my experiences. And reality yes, how much am I really even using my Monoliths in reality for home theater? (how deep into the 200WPC?) Probably not enough but I still like em Still probably not necessary to go to 300, 400, 500 WPC especially given the room (not an ampitheater) and the speakers I use.