12 year old AVR upgraded now, and have tried two new ones with disappointment

[lovinthehd]

Love my blues.. but a lilttle teckno as well for example Jon Blonmquist "taxi" the older unit would handle detailed highs and craxy accurate mids in this track. (like bad ass put a smile on your face), and the new unit at full power (volume 90) was a bore. Maybe needed some mid level frequncies tweaked raised but unit was out of headroom at this point.

I wouldn't play an avr at that high of a volume setting (assuming you calibrated).

 

[PENG]

Here’s a thought. If that were the case, why would all these AVRs have this “all channel stereo” mode?

If this were the case, all these companies are just asking for lawsuits.

I don’t like the sound of 11CH Stereo. But I have used it at my usual loud listening volume. If Gene were to measure a Yamaha AVR at 11CH driven, it would shut down for sure.

So my point is, these 11CH stereo modes aren’t as hard on the AVR as some people say. Otherwise, there would be some lawsuits.

I have probably said this many times, that a lot of people on audio forums forgot that a good % of all channel stereo users would expectedly and naturally, turn the volume down a few dB because of the much increased spl. How much they would turn it down, or not in some cases, would depend on what they use that mode for. A few people, such as you (based on what you just said) would not likely turn it down, but such people might also likely be the occasional users who wouldn't listen this way for long enough duration to damage their AVR, hence still no law suits.

 

[PENG]

Love my blues.. but a lilttle teckno as well for example Jon Blonmquist "taxi" the older unit would handle detailed highs and craxy accurate mids in this track. (like bad ass put a smile on your face), and the new unit at full power (volume 90) was a bore. Maybe needed some mid level frequncies tweaked raised but unit was out of headroom at this point.

Good to know you are still here. Volume 90, that is +10, any AVRs would likely be clipping, depending on the input level/contents/source players (for movies recorded to THX standards for sure), and CD, BR players and some streamers as well. The mystery though remain, you old AVR should behave similarly under such conditions.

Back to my question, did you (or at least accidentally) use the 4 ohm impedance setting on your new AVR? If I remember right, you did not do so on the AVR-2310 CI because it doesn't have that feature. As mentioned, the 4 ohm setting would likely reduce the rail voltage drastically so the 105 W rated amp section would be practically de-rated to 50 W or much less, into real 4 ohm speakers. In that case, at volume 90, the thing could (again, depending on the media contents and source players) have been clipping like crazy!!

If the new AVR sounds distorted even at volume 70, that is -10 to -12, then you might well happen to have a defective unit, especially if the 2310 sounded fine under the exact same conditions.

 

[everettT]

Here’s a thought. If that were the case, why would all these AVRs have this “all channel stereo” mode?

If this were the case, all these companies are just asking for lawsuits.

I don’t like the sound of 11CH Stereo. But I have used it at my usual loud listening volume. If Gene were to measure a Yamaha AVR at 11CH driven, it would shut down for sure.

So my point is, these 11CH stereo modes aren’t as hard on the AVR as some people say. Otherwise, there would be some lawsuits.

Under reasonable usage and a fairly benign speaker load I completely agree, but it seems the OP is really cranking the volume up..

 

[Eppie]

Under reasonable usage and a fairly benign speaker load I completely agree, but it seems the OP is really cranking the volume up..

I have the same AVR (2310ci) as the op originally had and rarely go above -10db on the volume scale. At +10db I would be worried about damaging my hearing and the speakers. Mind you, there has been no mention of the room size or seating distance.

 

[Mclovin]

Good to know you are still here. Volume 90, that is +10, any AVRs would likely be clipping, depending on the input level/contents/source players (for movies recorded to THX standards for sure), and CD, BR players and some streamers as well. The mystery though remain, you old AVR should behave similarly under such conditions.

Back to my question, did you (or at least accidentally) use the 4 ohm impedance setting on your new AVR? If I remember right, you did not do so on the AVR-2310 CI because it doesn't have that feature. As mentioned, the 4 ohm setting would likely reduce the rail voltage drastically so the 105 W rated amp section would be practically de-rated to 50 W or much less, into real 4 ohm speakers. In that case, at volume 90, the thing could (again, depending on the media contents and source players) have been clipping like crazy!!

If the new AVR sounds distorted even at volume 70, that is -10 to -12, then you might well happen to have a defective unit, especially if the 2310 sounded fine under the exact same conditions.

appreciate the feedback! tbh im not sure about ohm ratings.. it was an "open box" and i think that prompt wasnt prompt somthing i need to look into. And yes.. sounds like clipping on some sources. Like at high levels it just runs out out some frequencies. like it doesnt sound "full" for lack of a better term. I will check ohm ratings for i have read about this.

 

[PENG]

appreciate the feedback! tbh im not sure about ohm ratings.. it was an "open box" and i think that promp wasnt promped. somthing i need to look into. And yes.. sounds like clipping on some sources. Like at high levels it just runs out out some frequencies. like it doesnt sound "full" for lack of a better term. I will check ohm ratings for i have read about this.

If it is an open box, then someone might have set it up before. My suggestion on open box is to always do a complete factory reset (not just power cycle or "soft reset).

If someone did set it up before, and if they have 4 ohm speakers then they might have followed the instructions and set the unit to 4 ohm.

Again, it is best the factory reset that also reset the processor to default settings. Then you know you are on firm ground and go from there. This should be done regardless of the impedance thing, because the X3800/4800H are so feature rich that, it is not hard for someone to unintentionally messed something up in the setting that could major impact on sound quality. Older models are much simpler so less likely to have something messed up.

From the owner's manual:

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Under reasonable usage and a fairly benign speaker load I completely agree, but it seems the OP is really cranking the volume up..

I have probably said this many times, that a lot of people on audio forums forgot that a good % of all channel stereo users would expectedly and naturally, turn the volume down a few dB because of the much increased spl. How much they would turn it down, or not in some cases, would depend on what they use that mode for. A few people, such as you (based on what you just said) would not likely turn it down, but such people might also likely be the occasional users who wouldn't listen this way for long enough duration to damage their AVR, hence still no law suits.

What’s the likelihood of Yamaha - the BIGGEST sound company in the world with $3.6 billion annual revenue- allowing this risk ? Especially knowing how stringent they are with All Channels Driven.

You can’t even do a 7CH ACD test on a Yamaha amp because it will shut down.

My point is, these “11CH Stereo modes” are not truly All Channels Driven. Yamaha and others are putting power limits on these DSP modes. If they were truly 11CH ACD, there would be a lot of problems.

 

[PENG]

What’s the likelihood of Yamaha - the BIGGEST sound company in the world with $3.6 billion annual revenue- allowing this risk ? Especially knowing how stringent they are with All Channels Driven.

You can’t even do a 7CH ACD test on a Yamaha amp because it will shut down.

My point is, these “11CH Stereo modes” are not truly All Channels Driven. Yamaha and others are putting power limits on these DSP modes. If they were truly 11CH ACD, there would be a lot of problems.

I always thought the risk is minimal, people usually just mentioned it as a cautionary note. As you know, not everyone manufacturers implement protective schemes as stringent as Yamaha's. D+M's even guarantee 70% for 5, or even 7 (based on tests) channel driven, not ACD for the upper models but it is for the lower models, so those are not as well protected as Yamaha's or Onkyo's. Onkyo probably learnt their lesson so they are leaning the Yamaha way lol..

With Yubetubers gaining popularity, such ACD related misconceptions are going to gain popularity too via hearsay, along with the power consumption numbers taken as power supply rated (or "maximum") VA, overrated 4 ohm, high current, AVRs no good for music talks etc.etc...

 

[Golfx]

I read in one of the posts you are in New Zealand. If you have trouble getting US amps I could also recommend Class D Hypex and Purifi amps from Australia from March Audio or Nord Acoustics from Britain who will have 3 channel amps. I own both and find them dead quiet and reliable. They also had products when every one else had shortages.

 

[Bobby Bass]

Reading all the comments it appears the issue is the new amp if your old amp ran fine. For what it’s worth I powered my 1723 towers with my 16 year old Denon AVR-3805 with no problems And I listened loud for hours at a time. Rated at 120 WPC at 8 ohms. Didn’t get any hotter than when running other towers I’ve had and no protection circuits were ever triggered. Upgraded to Rotel separates with the RB 1582 MKII amp rated for 200 WPC and it drives them without strain. Hopefully the advice others have shared will help. Good luck!

 

[lovinthehd]

Reading all the comments it appears the issue is the new amp if your old amp ran fine. For what it’s worth I powered my 1723 towers with my 16 year old Denon AVR-3805 with no problems And I listened loud for hours at a time. Rated at 120 WPC at 8 ohms. Didn’t get any hotter than when running other towers I’ve had and no protection circuits were ever triggered. Upgraded to Rotel separates with the RB 1582 MKII amp rated for 200 WPC and it drives them without strain. Hopefully the advice others have shared will help. Good luck!

Curious, what did you gain from the separates particularly, if anything ?

 

[Bobby Bass]

The sound impact was not that significant. Plays louder at lower volume and a bit more headroom But the Denon sounded great. It was top of their line when I bought it to setup my HT in 2007. More about the aesthetics. I’ve wanted separates since I was a kid getting into music and couldn’t afford it. decided last year to switch my listening room from HT to 2 channel and the separates are part of the switch. I’m Happy when I listen and look at my setup which is what the hobby is all about For me.

 

[lovinthehd]

The sound impact was not that significant. Plays louder at lower volume and a bit more headroom But the Denon sounded great. It was top of their line when I bought it to setup my HT in 2007. More about the aesthetics. I’ve wanted separates since I was a kid getting into music and couldn’t afford it. decided last year to switch my listening room from HT to 2 channel and the separates are part of the switch. I’m Happy when I listen and look at my setup which is what the hobby is all about For me.

I didn't find the sound impact going from a receiver to separates a while back (no particular multich options at that time anyways) all that different except for a bit extra volume/headroom (how can you get louder at lower volume, tho?). I've gone mostly to avrs since to enjoy not only multich audio but also incorporating video. I have several listening rooms, four of five are multich with video. The 2ch room is my least used. Different strokes.....

 

[Bobby Bass]

I didn't find the sound impact going from a receiver to separates a while back (no particular multich options at that time anyways) all that different except for a bit extra volume/headroom (how can you get louder at lower volume, tho?). I've gone mostly to avrs since to enjoy not only multich audio but also incorporating video. I have several listening rooms, four of five are multich with video. The 2ch room is my least used. Different strokes.....

I hear you. Went from listening to mostly music to mostly TV and movies and now back to mostly music. Turned the volume up to 50-60% on the AVR and now getting the same sound output at only 40-46% on the amp. Enjoy lower listening levels Now too which is better for preserving my hearing.

 

[lovinthehd]

I hear you. Went from listening to mostly music to mostly TV and movies and now back to mostly music. Turned the volume up to 50-60% on the AVR and now getting the same sound output at only 40-46% on the amp. Enjoy lower listening levels Now too which is better for preserving my hearing.

The volume readings are not likely comparable. Unless calibrated they don't mean a lot. Consider it takes a doubling of power to gain merely 3dB (and many avrs do have dB based volume scales)

 

[PENG]

I hear you. Went from listening to mostly music to mostly TV and movies and now back to mostly music. Turned the volume up to 50-60% on the AVR and now getting the same sound output at only 40-46% on the amp. Enjoy lower listening levels Now too which is better for preserving my hearing.

Not trying to contradict you, but just to clarify the volume setting vs output level part. In your case (comparing the output level between the 3805 and 1582 MkII), something was not right, more likely you did not have the exact setup when comparing the too. There is no way 50-60% on the AVR would sound the same output level at 40-46% on the amp if you are using the AVR's pre out to drive the Rotel 1581 MkII.

No doubt the Rotel has much higher rated output than the AVR, but at the same volume level that is well be 0, say up to -10, or around 70 on the absolute scale, AVR's amp should sound louder than the pre out driven Rotel amp, because the Rotel's gain is at least 2 dB lower. At higher volume setting just as close to 0 (relative), or 80 (absolute), depending on other things, the AVR may be clipping, so the Rotel will let you go a couple dB higher on the volume before it would clip too.

As HD mentioned, volume readings are not comparable, because power output rating difference aside, gains of the amps compared are often different. A 100 W amp can sound much louder than a 1,000 W amp at the same volume setting, if both are used within their limit, if the 100 W amp has a much higher gain.