A

asere

Audioholic
Is the 805 out of stock everywhere because it's that good or less production?

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ban25

ban25

Audioholic
Is the 805 out of stock everywhere because it's that good or less production?

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk
These were pretty heavily anticipated products and IMO, the best on the market in terms of feature set for the money. Look at retailers like Crutchfield and World Wide Stereo, as well as the sister models, Onkyo TX-RZ70 and Integra DRX-8.4.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Not correct, Audyssey does not do phase, but it does time align multiple subs that in my experience, can achieve almost the same results and even better if I spend time tweaking things with the app. Without any manual tweaks, I do find Dirac's DLBC more effective, though people who discount Audyssey XT32 subEQ HT just because it only does time alignment, are baseless.
How are phase and time alignment differing here?
 
A

asere

Audioholic
What's a better choice from lx805 and onkyo rz70?

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ban25

ban25

Audioholic
What's a better choice from lx805 and onkyo rz70?

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I'd say it comes down to personal preference. The RZ-70 is $200 cheaper than the 805. For that savings, the amp is slightly derated by 10 WPC, it has smaller internal heatsinks, and it lacks the balanced input and outputs (FL, FR) that the 805 sports. On the other hand, if you want to go up in price another couple hundred dollars, you can add 3 more balanced outputs with the Integra DRX-8.4. Ultimately, I would suggest just getting whichever model you can find in stock!
 
A

asere

Audioholic
I'd say it comes down to personal preference. The RZ-70 is $200 cheaper than the 805. For that savings, the amp is slightly derated by 10 WPC, it has smaller internal heatsinks, and it lacks the balanced input and outputs (FL, FR) that the 805 sports. On the other hand, if you want to go up in price another couple hundred dollars, you can add 3 more balanced outputs with the Integra DRX-8.4. Ultimately, I would suggest just getting whichever model you can find in stock!
Is there really a sound difference having balance inputs and outputs for FL,FR?
The RZ70 also has THX certification, but I think that means nothing these days. I still have the legendary Onkyo 805 with THX Ultra and couldn't tell. It's just a badge, I think.

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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Is there really a sound difference having balance inputs and outputs for FL,FR?
The RZ70 also has THX certification, but I think that means nothing these days. I still have the legendary Onkyo 805 with THX Ultra and couldn't tell. It's just a badge, I think.

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XLR has a bit of an advantage over longer cable runs. Not particularly an sq difference even then. For most home use XLR isn't necessary, but if you have a fully balanced set of gear may as well use them....
 
ban25

ban25

Audioholic
Is there really a sound difference having balance inputs and outputs for FL,FR?
The RZ70 also has THX certification, but I think that means nothing these days. I still have the legendary Onkyo 805 with THX Ultra and couldn't tell. It's just a badge, I think.

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No real benefit. It can be helpful for longer runs, but I have a 100' unbalanced run to my subwoofer and no issues, so I'm not going to pull it out of the wall just to put XLR in there. :)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
No real benefit. It can be helpful for longer runs, but I have a 100' unbalanced run to my subwoofer and no issues, so I'm not going to pull it out of the wall just to put XLR in there. :)
If that were not a sub you would have noticed the difference. You would have had HF loss. It is not recommended practice to run unbalanced high impedance connections that far. You are very lucky you are not have issues picking up stray RF, like for instance from LED light bulbs, especially those on SCR light dimmers.
It is not recommended to run unbalanced cables that far. Just because you seem to have got away with it, it should not be advised.
 
ban25

ban25

Audioholic
If that were not a sub you would have noticed the difference. You would have had HF loss. It is not recommended practice to run unbalanced high impedance connections that far. You are very lucky you are not have issues picking up stray RF, like for instance from LED light bulbs, especially those on SCR light dimmers.
It is not recommended to run unbalanced cables that far. Just because you seem to have got away with it, it should not be advised.
It's quad-shielded RG6. Good enough for video and more than enough for low frequency audio.
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
That may be why I find the bass dull after running Audyssey. I have no manual with app on my avr.

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I too found older, non "app" version of XT32 wanting...
Dirac was a big upgrade for me - but it is well within the realm of possibility that I could have achieved a similar improvement with a Denon and the app to adjust XT32.... still after a decade of Audyssey disappointment, I wanted to try something else.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
How are phase and time alignment differing here?
I don't know, and I don't want to spend a ton of time to understand the theory and implementation schemes. Even if I try, I probably don't have enough knowledge in this field, to really understand the details. So, the best I can understand at the moment is based on what Dirac Live provided on their website, such as the following description, that is very brief and sketchy.

Bass Control - Dirac

Overcoming challenges to bass management
One of the keys to solving the bass optimization problem is introducing an all-pass filter that allows for precise control of a speaker’s phase response. Unlike high-pass and low-pass filters, an all-pass filter allows every signal through and adjusts the phase response (timing). With this type of filter, it’s possible to fine-tune the phase of each speaker so that the sound waves don’t cancel each other out and create dead zones in a room if you use multiple speakers.

Dirac Live Bass Control leverages all-pass filters, plus machine learning and artificial intelligence, to calculate gains, delays, and all-pass filters for each subwoofer. In this way, the Dirac solution ensures that low frequencies add up so that not only the average is controlled, but most importantly, seat-to-seat variation is minimized as we can now achieve a level of control in multiple locations at once.
It would seem that the short answer is then, Audyssey SubEQ HT use the time alignment method, based on the measured impulse response, whereas Dirac Live Bass Control (DLBC version, that is a paid upgrade) adds phase control. Since there is no way to measure phase directly using a mic and the software, I am pretty sure DLBC's phase correction is also based on impulse response and the measured time delays (just like Audyssey..), but also use the "all-pass filter" technique in their software, to analyze the phase information and hence correction.

There are obviously articles on the internet they go much further into the details, but I haven't even tried to understand any more than I have to. The fact (to me anyway) is that, Audyssey's time alignment method works well enough but DLBC does seem to work better based on out of the box, i.e. without tweaks, than Audyssey's based on my REW/Umik-1 mic measurements, and it sounds"better" to me, though that is highly subjective so no doubt some people might/would prefer Audyssey.

On that note, I can't help but am still amazed by how so many people, seemingly including even Gene and Matthew feel Anthem ARC Genesis (that also now does phase correction) so good. I am amazed because on the objective side, based on measurements, I have not seen evidence that it is better. To me, they performed poorly relative to DL and Audyssey, subjectively, it definitely can sound very good, but not without manual tweaks.
 
A

asere

Audioholic
I went up on the sub volume by 1 on the avr and sounds good now. I think Audyssey bass is dull after calibration.

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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't know, and I don't want to spend a ton of time to understand the theory and implementation schemes. Even if I try, I probably don't have enough knowledge in this field, to really understand the details. So, the best I can understand at the moment is based on what Dirac Live provided on their website, such as the following description, that is very brief and sketchy.

Bass Control - Dirac



It would seem that the short answer is then, Audyssey SubEQ HT use the time alignment method, based on the measured impulse response, whereas Dirac Live Bass Control (DLBC version, that is a paid upgrade) adds phase control. Since there is no way to measure phase directly using a mic and the software, I am pretty sure DLBC's phase correction is also based on impulse response and the measured time delays (just like Audyssey..), but also use the "all-pass filter" technique in their software, to analyze the phase information and hence correction.

There are obviously articles on the internet they go much further into the details, but I haven't even tried to understand any more than I have to. The fact (to me anyway) is that, Audyssey's time alignment method works well enough but DLBC does seem to work better based on out of the box, i.e. without tweaks, than Audyssey's based on my REW/Umik-1 mic measurements, and it sounds"better" to me, though that is highly subjective so no doubt some people might/would prefer Audyssey.

On that note, I can't help but am still amazed by how so many people, seemingly including even Gene and Matthew feel Anthem ARC Genesis (that also now does phase correction) so good. I am amazed because on the objective side, based on measurements, I have not seen evidence that it is better. To me, they performed poorly relative to DL and Audyssey, subjectively, it definitely can sound very good, but not without manual tweaks.
Phase and time correction are one and the same thing. Phase can be expressed as time, and time as phase. If a tone is 360 degrees out of phase, it is a whole cycle in time off. So it makes zero difference whether you say it is the time of the cycle or say it is 360 degrees. This is something people should be able to understand.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Phase and time correction are one and the same thing. Phase can be expressed as time, and time as phase. If a tone is 360 degrees out of phase, it is a whole cycle in time off. So it makes zero difference whether you say it is the time of the cycle or say it is 360 degrees. This is something people should be able to understand.
I know, and have said the same, if you read my post (the 2nd paragraph), but I added that Dirac Live stated that they use the all pass filter to do the trick. They did not elaborate on any details of how they use all pass filter and the associated software to do the phase correction thing. They likely have more to say in some research paper, but it is reasonable to expect they wouldn't provide enough details that may involve what they consider as proprietary information.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I went up on the sub volume by 1 on the avr and sounds good now. I think Audyssey bass is dull after calibration.

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As often mentioned on forums, adding sub volume/trim helps but tilting the bass target curve would usually result in not only more bass, but tighter, and more dynamic.

Something like:

1689516912292.png
 
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