After 16 yrs., it's time for a new A/V Receiver w/ Pre-Outs...

M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks guys I’m going to have to play with this. I’m old school, I want buttons and knobs not a programming degree. I have used the eq settings but this makes it hard to adjust on the fly. Thanks for the info
A lot of people still want buttons and knobs, so don't feel too old. I didn't realize how much I missed them until I restored my old Pioneer SA-8500 from 1976 a couple years ago. It's what was missing on a lot of the old content I listen to. Where it tended not to work so much was when trying to include all of my audio needs in one combined/convenient place and greatly revolving around video that I would never need. As such, I have fired most of the software pushers from my music.

If I were into video, I would still have a stand alone music system besides the completely integrated video one.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Im just learning this stuff. I’m not sure what you refer to as “pro amplifiers”? If the AVR has them [XLR connections], wouldn’t it be a cleaner sound than RCA feeding down to the amplifier? Both amps I possess have the XLR. Would it not be better for the AVR to have them as well?
Welcome to Audioholics. Asking questions about home audio is always a good thing. No questions are dumb questions, unless you never ask them. Some newbies find it difficult to admit what they don't know. I'm glad to see new posters at AH, such as yourself, asking plenty of questions.

Verdinut, Bobby Bass, and others have already pointed out that balanced audio connections with XLR plugs are not really needed. But, here's a bit more info about XLR connections…

Balanced audio connections are commonly used in professional audio for live audio and in recording studios for microphones with long cables. Microphones produce very low voltage signals, 1-3 mV. Long cables, 30 feet or longer, carrying such low voltages can easily pick up noise from electromagnetic interference (EMI) or radio frequency interference (RFI). So, audio cables carrying low voltages over long distances should be balanced to cancel out this EMI/RFI noise. They must also be used with audio gear that come with the differential circuits required, on both ends of the cable. Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio

Years ago, Pro Audio, standardized on balanced audio interconnect cables with sturdy, locking XLR plugs. Pro Audio often needs to use long interconnects, such as for microphones, and works in a wide variety of locations where EMI/RFI might be a problem. Eliminate any confusion from having both balanced and unbalanced interconnects, by having only balanced ones. XLR plugs & jacks are sturdier and will stand up to wear, tear & abuse better than RCA plugs. All are good reasons, for those in pro audio.

In home audio, RCA plugs & jacks became the standard type of connection because they are inexpensive and small. XLR plugs on balanced cables (3 conductors, not 2) are larger, and the differential circuits needed for balanced connections cost more. Why use up limited space on the back of any receiver with larger XLR plugs if it isn't needed? Why add to the cost if it isn't needed?

Interestingly, phonograph pick up cartridges also produce low voltage signals, about 0.5 to 5 mV, similar to the 3 mV signal of microphones. Yet, all turntables rely on unbalanced cables with RCA plugs. As long as they're not longer than 1 meter, 3½ feet, they're no problem. In fact, I've never heard of a turntable that requires balanced audio connections with XLR type plugs.

RCA interconnects are not balanced, and can pick up EMI/RFI noise if it's strong enough to interfere with the desired audio signal. It's important to understand that short enough cable length, and high enough voltage level of the audio signal can both make an interconnect cable effectively immune to EMI/RFI noise. Despite what you may have read, most homes do not suffer from high levels of electronic noise. There can be exceptions, but you'll know it if your system picks up EMI/RFI noise. It isn't subtle.

Balanced audio connections have become fashionable among audiophiles for use at preamp-to-amp connections. It's almost never needed, and it's odd that people have been misled into believing it's valuable – valuable only as audio jewelry. There are lots of examples of electronic gear that feature XLR connections as a sought-after feature, usually at higher prices. The voltage levels between preamps and amps are about 0.1 to 5.0 volts (100 to 5,000 mV) – much higher than microphone or phono pick up levels. Interconnects at this level carry signals that are about 100 times stronger than a microphone or phono pick up. Standard unbalanced RCA interconnects between a preamp and amp are fine, unless you have an unusually noisy environment with high levels of EMI/RFI.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks guys I’m going to have to play with this. I’m old school, I want buttons and knobs not a programming degree. I have used the eq settings but this makes it hard to adjust on the fly. Thanks for the info
Modern avrs just aren't going to have a bass and treble knob....they went away a long time ago. I don't miss them myself, as I don't generally find any need to adjust on the fly, prefer the better capabilities beyond a simple bass/treble control, and for a single/input source not doing much changing but can setup different profiles for different inputs if I really feel the need. Are you using the Audyssey editor app? One of the easier ways to setup a profile and implement it fairly quickly.
 
F

Focus SE

Junior Audioholic
Modern avrs just aren't going to have a bass and treble knob....they went away a long time ago. I don't miss them myself, as I don't generally find any need to adjust on the fly, prefer the better capabilities beyond a simple bass/treble control, and for a single/input source not doing much changing but can setup different profiles for different inputs if I really feel the need. Are you using the Audyssey editor app? One of the easier ways to setup a profile and implement it fairly quickly.
Am I using an app? Haha I’ve tried to throw way too much at my brain in way too short a period of time while still trying to live a life outside of listening. I’m trying to get the terminology down before I do anything else. Take for instance the Audyssey room correction I still haven’t done that. My answer so far has been to do the chair dance and speaker placement. I want to learn the basics before I compensate with technology. Other than my wife who knew 6 inches makes a difference? (One speaker just that much closer threw off the balance something terrible) I like the modern convenience of technologies capabilities because I don’t want to go down the vinyl path. I get the purity argument but to me the setup I have makes up for a lot of impurities on digital. Next step is my possible ground loop hum. I have many of the usual causes I need to eliminate. Audio wise I have zero issues but as soon as I connect video my speakers yell at me. It was fine with the Marantz amp but this legacy does not like it. Everyone here has been helpful and I appreciate it but before I take yours or anyone’s time I would like to do all the obvious corrections. I bought the legacy amp used and before I even hooked it up I knew the unwrapped power cord was not the original. It clearly is a cheap Chinese computer power supply. What I did notice was that Marantz does not use the ground plug on there power cord going into the back of the amp but legacy does. I’m leaning towards two systems anyway one audio one video/audio. I’ll be racking my brain for years. As always thanks!!!!
 
F

Focus SE

Junior Audioholic
A lot of people still want buttons and knobs, so don't feel too old. I didn't realize how much I missed them until I restored my old Pioneer SA-8500 from 1976 a couple years ago. It's what was missing on a lot of the old content I listen to. Where it tended not to work so much was when trying to include all of my audio needs in one combined/convenient place and greatly revolving around video that I would never need. As such, I have fired most of the software pushers from my music.

If I were into video, I would still have a stand alone music system besides the completely integrated video one.
Stand alone audio is where I’m thinking I’m headed. The whole idea of hooking up external amplification on old units is confusing to me. Without the pre outs on older units my brain shuts down and I am totally unfamiliar with the processors of yesteryear. But I like the way you think. I do the the Eq on the new avr. I don’t want to keep a spread sheet on all the different artists and their recording styles. I know I should listen to it the way they wanted me to hear it but I’ve learned a good number of the engineers mastering great music should have consulted me first on how the sound should have been done!!!!
 
F

Focus SE

Junior Audioholic
Welcome to Audioholics. Asking questions about home audio is always a good thing. No questions are dumb questions, unless you never ask them. Some newbies find it difficult to admit what they don't know. I'm glad to see new posters at AH, such as yourself, asking plenty of questions.

Verdinut, Bobby Bass, and others have already pointed out that balanced audio connections with XLR plugs are not really needed. But, here's a bit more info about XLR connections…

Balanced audio connections are commonly used in professional audio for live audio and in recording studios for microphones with long cables. Microphones produce very low voltage signals, 1-3 mV. Long cables, 30 feet or longer, carrying such low voltages can easily pick up noise from electromagnetic interference (EMI) or radio frequency interference (RFI). So, audio cables carrying low voltages over long distances should be balanced to cancel out this EMI/RFI noise. They must also be used with audio gear that come with the differential circuits required, on both ends of the cable. Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio

Years ago, Pro Audio, standardized on balanced audio interconnect cables with sturdy, locking XLR plugs. Pro Audio often needs to use long interconnects, such as for microphones, and works in a wide variety of locations where EMI/RFI might be a problem. Eliminate any confusion from having both balanced and unbalanced interconnects, by having only balanced ones. XLR plugs & jacks are sturdier and will stand up to wear, tear & abuse better than RCA plugs. All are good reasons, for those in pro audio.

In home audio, RCA plugs & jacks became the standard type of connection because they are inexpensive and small. XLR plugs on balanced cables (3 conductors, not 2) are larger, and the differential circuits needed for balanced connections cost more. Why use up limited space on the back of any receiver with larger XLR plugs if it isn't needed? Why add to the cost if it isn't needed?

Interestingly, phonograph pick up cartridges also produce low voltage signals, about 0.5 to 5 mV, similar to the 3 mV signal of microphones. Yet, all turntables rely on unbalanced cables with RCA plugs. As long as they're not longer than 1 meter, 3½ feet, they're no problem. In fact, I've never heard of a turntable that requires balanced audio connections with XLR type plugs.

RCA interconnects are not balanced, and can pick up EMI/RFI noise if it's strong enough to interfere with the desired audio signal. It's important to understand that short enough cable length, and high enough voltage level of the audio signal can both make an interconnect cable effectively immune to EMI/RFI noise. Despite what you may have read, most homes do not suffer from high levels of electronic noise. There can be exceptions, but you'll know it if your system picks up EMI/RFI noise. It isn't subtle.

Balanced audio connections have become fashionable among audiophiles for use at preamp-to-amp connections. It's almost never needed, and it's odd that people have been misled into believing it's valuable – valuable only as audio jewelry. There are lots of examples of electronic gear that feature XLR connections as a sought-after feature, usually at higher prices. The voltage levels between preamps and amps are about 0.1 to 5.0 volts (100 to 5,000 mV) – much higher than microphone or phono pick up levels. Interconnects at this level carry signals that are about 100 times stronger than a microphone or phono pick up. Standard unbalanced RCA interconnects between a preamp and amp are fine, unless you have an unusually noisy environment with high levels of EMI/RFI.
That is very helpful without me needing to be an engineer. I truly appreciate yours and everyone’s help so far. My problem is I have enough electrical understanding to over complicate issues without ever wanting to get to where I need to bring in frequency measuring equipment. Thank you!!!
 
D

dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
Modern avrs just aren't going to have a bass and treble knob....they went away a long time ago. I don't miss them myself, as I don't generally find any need to adjust on the fly, prefer the better capabilities beyond a simple bass/treble control, and for a single/input source not doing much changing but can setup different profiles for different inputs if I really feel the need. Are you using the Audyssey editor app? One of the easier ways to setup a profile and implement it fairly quickly.
On the remote for my Integra 3.4, there is a bass and treble button, next to an up/down - so there is no knob on the AVR, but it is implemented as a function, and enabled by the user interface of the remote.

At a guess it is also accessible on the app remote - but I don't use that
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
On the remote for my Integra 3.4, there is a bass and treble button, next to an up/down - so there is no knob on the AVR, but it is implemented as a function, and enabled by the user interface of the remote.

At a guess it is also accessible on the app remote - but I don't use that
Yes, usually fine by remote vs front panel. Just sometimes people think that needs a programming degree :) (but I understand not wanting to deal with newer tech, I've done some serious resisting in my time). App remotes or even IP control can be fine...
 
G

GKH

Enthusiast
Since you’ve been using a Sony AVR for so long, first thought is to get another Sony ES AVR.

But, of course, any of these AVR’s should be good - Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Sony ES.
The AZ5000ES does look nice! I read up on it yesterday, and watched a review of model AZ7000ES, the next model up.
Thanks for mentioning!
 
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