Not including pre-amp inputs on AVRs is a crime

[Fried Chicken]

I just looked at the Denon A1H. They went to great lengths to discuss their massive transformer, huge heatsinks, A+ quality componentry... but the internal processing board isn't available for an upgrade that I can tell. It seems once any of the feature components of this receiver becomes obsolete, the entire unit goes with it.

Of course it's not just Denon, it's the whole industry. This is straight up a crime. What an awful practice. I bought a Yamaha RX-A3040 - the latest generation of Yamaha receiver that still includes a preamplifier input so I can use its amplification once obsolescence stands on the horizon... which it almost already does as it doesn't support DTS:X.

It's a damn shame, and this needs to be stressed more.

 

[mono-bloc]

It all comes down to cost equals profit. This is how it works , they design the perfect AVR model with all the whistles and bells, Then it goes to the "Bean Counters" who strip out all the good bits, No Pre-outs, No Direct In connections, No S/PDIF, No RCA. No RS-232 socket. No Trigger in / out. And of cause SCART went the way of the Dinosaurs, Which of cause is a European management system. Which includes a trigger system, something that HDMI will never offer. So just what do you get, an Internet connection, and a few HDMI sockets, Before long the speaker terminals will be gone , replaced with a single Sound-Bar connection.

 

[ban25]

ARC/eARC fulfills the purpose of a digital audio input. Denon has provided hardware upgrades to their flagship AVR in the past, as seen in the X8500H to X8500HA, which added HDMI 2.1 support.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have a couple units with the multich analog inputs but never use them, would think more avrs with pre-outs would be more useful. Expecting upgradable boards, meh.

 

[Fried Chicken]

It all comes down to cost equals profit. This is how it works , they design the perfect AVR model with all the whistles and bells, Then it goes to the "Bean Counters" who strip out all the good bits, No Pre-outs, No Direct In connections, No S/PDIF, No RCA. No RS-232 socket. No Trigger in / out. And of cause SCART went the way of the Dinosaurs, Which of cause is a European management system. Which includes a trigger system, something that HDMI will never offer. So just what do you get, an Internet connection, and a few HDMI sockets, Before long the speaker terminals will be gone , replaced with a single Sound-Bar connection.

It costs literally nothing. The AVRs used to have jumper bars in the back that you would simply remove so you could do whatever you wanted with.

It's a damn crime, and this falls squarely on tech journalists and reporters to inform consumers to call the manufacturers out on this poop practice. It's a damn crime that literal hundreds of thousands of perfectly serviceable amplifiers get thrown in the trash because something completely unrelated became obsolete.

 

[PENG]

I have a couple units with the multich analog inputs but never use them, would think more avrs with pre-outs would be more useful. Expecting upgradable boards, meh.

Exactly, my old Denon avrs have them and I've never used them either. It wouldn't make sense for Denon to include a feature that all of their potential buys would have to pay for it, just for the sake of a few who would use it. Those who need that specific feature could go with other options as it is not realistic to expect so many other users to subsidize them to have a rarely used feature by just a few people. Even Marantz has finally waken up and ditched those 7 channel analog inputs in their 2022/23 models. Those things are called "legacy..." for a reason.

Multichannel pre outs are different, they are current features that many AVR users do use so I think manufacturers would lose market share if they get rid of those.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Can't please everyone.

If it were up to me, there would just be just HDMI Inputs and absolutely NOTHING else.

It would be cool if one day AVP/AVR could be CUSTOM built like a custom PC where we can order EXACTLY what we want. But that probably won't happen because they want consumers to buy every 1-3 years, not buy once every 10-20 years.

 

[Trebdp83]

To be clear, the ports being discussed here were MULTICHANNEL IN ports originally intended for disc players that supported SACD and DVD-AUDIO discs.Those were 5.1 formats with signals that could not be had over optical or coaxial digital cables. Later universal players had 7.1 pre outs for support of Dolby TrueHD 7.1 and DTS HD Master Audio 7.1 to connect to receivers with MULTICHANNEL IN 7.1 ports.

While these MULTICHANNEL IN 7.1 ports on some receivers can be used with a pre amplifier, that was never the intent. HDMI would come along and eventually support all formats and those MULTICHANNEL IN ports would die a slow death like the disc types for which they were intended.

Those receivers that have MULTICHANNEL IN/EXT. IN 7.1 ports come up short for processors or receivers with pre outs these days that support Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, Auro-3D and 360 Reality Audio. I’d say the real crime is how much one has to pay for a processor with no amp section when going with separates.

FAQ: Where Did My Multi-Channel Analog Inputs Go?

Are you looking at a new AV receiver and realize there are no multi-channel analog inputs on it to play multi-channel SACD files in native DSD format. Are you out of luck? Read on to find out.

www.audioholics.com

 

[Fried Chicken]

Let me repeat: IT COSTS NOTHING!

It costs NOTHING to have a way to bypass the preamp and go directly into the amplifier. Receivers used to connect the two via jumper bars on the back the user could remove. WHY WAS THIS PRACTICE EVER DISCONTINUED?!

It's ridiculous!

 

[TLS Guy]

Let me repeat: IT COSTS NOTHING!

It costs NOTHING to have a way to bypass the preamp and go directly into the amplifier. Receivers used to connect the two via jumper bars on the back the user could remove. WHY WAS THIS PRACTICE EVER DISCONTINUED?!

It's ridiculous!

The answer is competition for "real estate" on the back of the receiver.

Honestly though not many would use an old receiver just for the amps. They are not good power amps anyway, low end at best and that could be over stating it.

If you want power amps, then go separates. That is your answer. I agree there is obsolescence. My power amps are on on their fourth AVP going back to pre HDMI.

That is you answer, not plugging your gear into half a boat anchor.

Anyhow if you really wanted to do it, you could easily mod an old receiver, and connect the amps to some of the old RCA inputs which would not be used. More often than not though, old receivers go into protection and give you the red light of death, so access to the power amps like you suggest, would not help. Your solution is separates with big boy power amps, and not those puny receiver amps, on "postage stamp" circuit boards.

 

[lovinthehd]

Let me repeat: IT COSTS NOTHING!

It costs NOTHING to have a way to bypass the preamp and go directly into the amplifier. Receivers used to connect the two via jumper bars on the back the user could remove. WHY WAS THIS PRACTICE EVER DISCONTINUED?!

It's ridiculous!

I've seen old 2ch receivers with the pre-out/main in ports connected by the jumper bars....but not an avr. As was said, it costs rear panel real estate for something mostly intended for analog outputs of disc players (which have also mostly disappeared).

 

[Trebdp83]

It wasn't exactly done at no cost and most lower end models of receivers never had them. Many devices have done away with all but HDMI outputs and there is little reason to include multichannel analog ports anymore and even the multitude of coaxial and optical input ports have been reduce to one or two of each on many AVRs. The 7.1 analog ports were never meant to place the receiver into amp duty to connect to a new unit, though using them for height channels wouldn't be too much of a burden on one when a new receiver processes more channels than it can power or somebody just wants to lighten the load on a new unit.

The 7.1 analog ports are no longer relevant in a digital world where spatial audio formats cannot be used with anything but HDMI. More ridiculous than not including obsolete ports so one can use them for an unintended purpose is the practice of charging full price for partially capable new units that will only be fully capable when and if a future firmware update comes around. One would hope those updates come before any changes in HDMI/HDCP specs or the introduction of new audio up mixers.

I've gotten over the lack of multi channel in 7.1 ports because I no longer need them for their intended purpose and there are so many other things to get worked up over concerning new receivers.

 

[PENG]

The answer is competition for "real estate" on the back of the receiver.

Agreed, it's not so much about cost for the stupid parts (bunch of RCA connectors, a few wires, jumpers or relays) but real estate. Most, if not all AVRs that offered those 5.1 or 7.1 analog inputs for the old SACD, BDPs don't have more than 7 channels of preamp/dac, power amps, and only 4 HDMI input, 1 output, so real estate wasn't much of an issue. With the 11 or more channel avrs, in order to wire and fit those analog inputs, there will for sure be design/implementation cost, not just the parts.

With the continuing crazy race to featuring the highest channel and HDMI input/output counts, that 5.1/7.1 analog input ship has sailed quite a while ago.

 

[Fried Chicken]

I can't believe this practice is getting any traction on this forum, when Gene himself that railed against this practice for the longest time.

 

[lovinthehd]

I can't believe this practice is getting any traction on this forum, when Gene himself that railed against this practice for the longest time.

Got a link for context?

 

[ban25]

I can't believe this practice is getting any traction on this forum, when Gene himself that railed against this practice for the longest time.

The McIntosh MHT300 does include dedicated pre-amp inputs with jumper bars for all 7 channels and it is new, including support for HDMI 2.1, if you're interested in going that route.

 

[Fried Chicken]

Got a link for context?

One of his reviews of the Aventage receivers that actually included multi-channel input. It was discontinued after the RX-AXX40 generation, which is why I bought the RX-A3040 as my HT receiver.

 

[TLS Guy]

One of his reviews of the Aventage receivers that actually included multi-channel input. It was discontinued after the RX-AXX40 generation, which is why I bought the RX-A3040 as my HT receiver.

There is another issue here. We are now past the point where RCA video outputs are no longer legal. Digital AV units are only allowed to have digital outputs that conform to current DRM rules. Whist the analog 5.1 inputs might be legal, current equipment does not have 5.1 or more RCA outputs, so there is really no point in putting them on the AVRs or AVPs. as only legacy equipment could use it. I am not even certain those 5.1 audio inputs are even legal any longer.
There is an absolute forcing of HDMI in AV equipment now. All the gear does contain analog left and right RCA inputs I think for stereo analog units, and that is all you need, and I have a feeling those are the only ones that are legal.

 

[lovinthehd]

One of his reviews of the Aventage receivers that actually included multi-channel input. It was discontinued after the RX-AXX40 generation, which is why I bought the RX-A3040 as my HT receiver.

So you knew that that feature was being eliminated from Yamaha and bought accordingly and waited until now to rant ?

 

[Fried Chicken]

There is another issue here. We are now past the point where RCA video outputs are no longer legal. Digital AV units are only allowed to have digital outputs that conform to current DRM rules. Whist the analog 5.1 inputs might be legal, current equipment does not have 5.1 or more RCA outputs, so there is really no point in putting them on the AVRs or AVPs. as only legacy equipment could use it. I am not even certain those 5.1 audio inputs are even legal any longer.
There is an absolute forcing of HDMI in AV equipment now. All the gear does contain analog left and right RCA inputs I think for stereo analog units, and that is all you need, and I have a feeling those are the only ones that are legal.

Sorry... what? Is this is akin to saying power amplifiers are illegal? Or preamplifier/processors are illegal?

The inputs I'm talking about are merely to use the AVR as a separate multichannel amplifier once preamplifier and processing stage become obsolete.

So you knew that that feature was being eliminated from Yamaha and bought accordingly and waited until now to rant ?

I'm sorry, what does timing have to do with anything? It's a poop industry practice, and I don't care how standardized it gets, it's always worth pointing it out.