Yamaha RX-A3080 to Anthem AVM 90 ?

[TLEW]

One of my friends own the R11 towers and powers them with just his Yamaha RX-A4A. He absolutely loves it.

I love my Yamaha RX-A3080.

Don't get me wrong I love my 3080 and have spent hrs with REW and YPAO tuning and tuning. Sometimes I get the upgrade bug and in search of better more fuller sound. Thinking that a pre/pro might deliver that with different room correction. As far as research thats why I'm here asking questions. The old days of demo rooms are pretty much gone at least around my area. Even so what sounds great in a demo room might not in our home space.

 

[lovinthehd]

Don't get me wrong I love my 3080 and have spent hrs with REW and YPAO tuning and tuning. Sometimes I get the upgrade bug and in search of better more fuller sound. Thinking that a pre/pro might deliver that with different room correction. As far as research thats why I'm here asking questions. The old days of demo rooms are pretty much gone at least around my area. Even so what sounds great in a demo room might not in our home space.

Having well setup dsp/room correction at a dealer can be hit/miss, too, especially if using different speakers. Better/more fuller sound would be more speakers/subs/room than a pre-pro IME.

 

[TLEW]

Having well setup dsp/room correction at a dealer can be hit/miss, too, especially if using different speakers. Better/more fuller sound would be more speakers/subs/room than a pre-pro IME.

The bass sounds good and is not overbearing. But how do you truely know if the subs and mains are integrated to the best they can be?
Another note Crutchfield has a 60 day return policy which might work for testing out.

 

[lovinthehd]

The bass sounds good and is not overbearing. But how do you truely know if the subs and mains are integrated to the best they can be?
Another note Crutchfield has a 60 day return policy which might work for testing out.

Do you have measurement gear? Even if you get different gear to test at home (best place, no doubt) then proper A/B comparisons become quite difficult to do well.

 

[TLEW]

Do you have measurement gear? Even if you get different gear to test at home (best place, no doubt) then proper A/B comparisons become quite difficult to do well.

REW, umik-1,SPL meter. I used it to zero in the EQ on each sub since the 3080 had trouble EQing the peeks.

 

[lovinthehd]

REW, umik-1,SPL meter. I used it to zero in the EQ on each sub since the 3080 had trouble EQing the peeks.

YPAO isn't famous for sub integration. A miniDSP unit is a thought since you have the measurement gear, and it can even implement eq so your avr doesn't have to do so much....

 

[TLEW]

YPAO isn't famous for sub integration. A miniDSP unit is a thought since you have the measurement gear, and it can even implement eq so your avr doesn't have to do so much....

I tried the minidsp and probably gave up on it too soon. Just for sub management. Not the mains.

 

[lovinthehd]

I tried the minidsp and probably gave up on it too soon. Just for sub management. Not the mains.

It can be a pain/investment in time With avrs not very useful for the mains, but subs can benefit. The newer Denon avrs with 4 sub capabilities and both Audyssey and Dirac possibilities seem better to me than going other routes (for now, it's constantly changing to an extent).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Don't get me wrong I love my 3080 and have spent hrs with REW and YPAO tuning and tuning. Sometimes I get the upgrade bug and in search of better more fuller sound. Thinking that a pre/pro might deliver that with different room correction. As far as research thats why I'm here asking questions. The old days of demo rooms are pretty much gone at least around my area. Even so what sounds great in a demo room might not in our home space.

So the current sound feels a little bass-light or thin-sounding or “anemic” and needs 2 Units of PRBC (Blood Transfusion)?

And you use YPAO Flat or Natural?

I tried Flat and Natural. They got the flattest frequency response on REW. But they sounded “Anemic” or thin to me.

So I said, “Screw this, I’m just gonna set all my speakers to 0.0dB Flat on the manual PEQ and set the manual PEQ of my subs at the ~ 40, 60, 80, 100 Hz region to +3.0, Q=0.5. Also manually increased the Sub trims (speaker channel levels of Subs) to suit my preference. The REW didn’t look as pretty as the Flat and Natural YPAO. But it sounded amazing to me, which reminded me of Audyssey Dynamic EQ when I was using on my Denon AVP-A1HDCI.

But whatever works for people. Anthem ARC or Dirac seems to be a fan favorite.

Are there any places were you could “borrow” an Anthem to try out the ARC? Same thing with Dirac?

 

[TLEW]

So the current sound feels a little bass-light or thin-sounding or “anemic” and needs 2 Units of PRBC (Blood Transfusion)?

And you use YPAO Flat or Natural?

I tried Flat and Natural. They got the flattest frequency response on REW. But they sounded “Anemic” or thin to me.

So I said, “Screw this, I’m just gonna set all my speakers to 0.0dB Flat on the manual PEQ and set the manual PEQ of my subs at the ~ 40, 60, 80, 100 Hz region to +3.0, Q=0.5. Also manually increased the Sub trims (speaker channel levels of Subs) to suit my preference. The REW didn’t look as pretty as the Flat and Natural YPAO. But it sounded amazing to me, which reminded me of Audyssey Dynamic EQ when I was using on my Denon AVP-A1HDCI.

But whatever works for people. Anthem ARC or Dirac seems to be a fan favorite.

Are there any places were you could “borrow” an Anthem to try out the ARC? Same thing with Dirac?

I usually copy the flat to manual then tweak the mains using REW. Sometimes its sounds a bit thin, so I switch back to flat because I don't think some of the filters get copied over.

 

[TLEW]

Whether one sounds better to the other or not I can't say, because it depends on so many factors. In theory if the distortions are below the threshold of audibility, frequency responses are less than +/- 0.5 dB full range, there will most likely be no audible difference, all else being equal. That's for preamp/dacs and power amps, for DSP, there could be little to very audible difference between units that have different DSP chips and implementation, but then it is still tough to say if others reported brand A better than B, will you or won't you hear similar kind of difference. Like food, people have different taste/preference.

Now the specifics, the Yamaha RX-A3080, as you probably know, have the ES9026Pro for the main 7 channels, and the ES9007 (same as the 9006 the best I can tell, as the ES9006 seems just a different number for Yamaha, may be a few others, cannot find the datasheet anywhere for the 9007.

The AVM90 has the ES9038Pro, and as far as I know, you probably cannot find another (may be 1 or 2 that I missed, not aware of, perhaps Arcam's top model?) AVP that uses such an expensive real reference class DAC chip.

The AVM70 uses the ES9038Q2M, that is virtually as good as the ES9038Pro. Both chips have specs well above that of the 3080's ES9026Pro, but the difference may not be audible.

Back on the subjective side, you can read a lot on forums and it is common to find that owners tend to say nice things about their expensive gear vs the cheaper ones. So yes, you will read a lot of Anthem users reporting much better sound quality from the AVM90 over the AVM70, many would even claim "night and day", huge improvements going from the 70 to the 90.

I spent some time listening to the 90 in the dealer's demo room and I could not support such claims at all. Yes the AVM90 sounded great playing the dealer's demo movie tracks, but to me, there is no night and day difference even compared to my AVR-X4400H based on auditory memory. There is no way, and I am certain about it that someone without real golden years can identify the 90 from the 70 if in a blind comparison listening test. You should be able ask for a AB demo comparison between the two as most dealers likely have both setup.

If I heard any easy to tell difference offered by the AVM90 I would have bought it, but I settled for the 70 and am very happy about it. I like AVPs/AVRs that uses the better DAC ICs, regardless whether I could hear a better difference or not. Anthem has that edge, in terms of using better DAC, and likely the important volume control ICs, and that makes me feel good about theirs.

The Marantz AV10 uses a ES9018K2M how does that rate?

 

[Cos]

How do you stream local music to the 70?

My QNAP NAS, Plex Server and HDMI Connection. When the AVM70 Finally get Roon, will use that for my Music

 

[PENG]

The Marantz AV10 uses a ES9018K2M how does that rate?

It has excellent spec, SOTA class imo, but a little below the AVM70's ES9038Q2M, you can download the Sabre DAC's datasheets

ES9038Q2M_Datasheet_v1_4-3074379.pdf (mouser.com)
ES9018K2M_Datasheet_v3_7-3074373.pdf (mouser.com)

In terms of SINAD, and price at Mouser.com:
ES9038Q2M................... 120 dB .................... $13.25 per piece on quantity of 100 based on Mouser.com's price
ES9018K2M................... 120 dB .................... $8.28 per piece at quantity of 100

In terms of DR, the 9038Q2M is 1 dB better vs the 9018K2M's 127 dB.

If you have source player and contents for playing DSD files the 9038Q2M is better because it should be able to play the highest available resolution DSD files, depending on how they are implemented.

I have external DACs that use the 9038Q2M, 9018 and 9038Pro, they all sound great, no difference.

Before you ask, the ES9038Pro's SINAD is 122 dB, so only 2 dB better but DNR jumps to 140 dB (mono), price based on Mouser's jumps to $62.79 but it is an 8 channel IC, so for apples-apples comparison, price would be $15.7, still quite a bit more expensive than the 9038Q2M.

Since you seem interested in the DAC and the AV10, you may find the following article interesting to read:
AVR - Audio Video Receiver - Build Quality: Part I - HomeTheaterHifi.com

Marantz flag ship AV preamp processor and Denon's AVRs have been using the same DAC and Volume ICs since around 2012. The vol IC has been the bottleneck, according the Dr. Rich's (hometheaterhifi.com) findings, and it would appear that after they called them out in the review, Marantz responded with a rebuttal, but yet they did go back on the drawing board and eventually replaced the volume chip since around 2016; and Denon Japan website actually made a big thing on that new chip, claiming major improvements. That new chip has been used to the D+M's lower models as well so consumers all benefit from that upgrade. Prior to that, according to Dr. Rich, the Marantz AVP and AVRs basically would have the same bottleneck as a $250 Yamaha AVR, in terms of the preamp/dac in direct mode.

Without objective reviews with measurements, it is a safe bet that manufacturers such as Marantz, would likely have relied on people's biased perception so they would probably focus more on their marketing material to give potential users reasons to believe they heard what they were told to expect to hear. Thanks for the technical reviewer such as Gene, Dr. Rich, Amir (all electrical engineers), Yamaha , D+M and potentially others including Anthem might have paid more attention in their design and use better specified parts in order to get better bench test results, even if that means very little to improved sound quality that is audible to most users.

 

[TLEW]

My QNAP NAS, Plex Server and HDMI Connection. When the AVM70 Finally get Roon, will use that for my Music

Oh ok. I have a QNAP NAS as well but I use DLNA from the Yamaha over a wired connection. I always wondered why it wouldn't work with HDMI and thought that connection was for desktop purposes. So I could potential reinstall plex server and use the HDMI directly into the AVR? I also have roon core installed on the NAS, seems to work well.

 

[fmw]

Might check out measurements of some of the pre-pros and compare to avrs. Should is more marketing If you can hear the difference in a proper comparison, go for it, but that's hard to arrange otoh.

If he can hear a difference without any digital processing then I would chalk it up to bias.

 

[TLEW]

If he can hear a difference without any digital processing then I would chalk it up to bias.

Thats true. Its nice some of the dealers allow 60 days to eval.

 

[PENG]

My QNAP NAS, Plex Server and HDMI Connection. When the AVM70 Finally get Roon, will use that for my Music

I am not familiar with Roon, can you kindly give me brief rundown on its pros and cons or just what are the good things it can do that otherwise I can't do. Thanks, just feel a little lazy to research it as for now I just need a summarized version. I always wonder why so many Anthem users are asking for it, like they can't wait.

 

[cpp]

I was talking with a dealer and they were pushing the AVM90 or the Marantz AV10, imagine that 2 of the most expensive ones...lol

All dealers will want to push the merits for their top of the line gear. Like car sellsmen, always pushing options LOL. As a buyer only you can stop the maddness and get them to come down to your budget and then do their job, or leave and find another dealer.

 

[cpp]

I love my Yamaha RX-A3080.

Huh ! somehow I thought you had separates Yammy stuff

 

[TLEW]

Huh ! somehow I thought you had separates Yammy stuff

Hybrid setup. Have external amps for all channels so I more or less use the 3080 as a pre/pro. Maybe I'm wasting $$$ looking at other pre/pros, just looking for now. Always striving for better sound. Wife thinks I'm crazy..