Help Monolith VS Outlaw 7000x and my current home theater setup

D

drummertime

Junior Audioholic
I'm currently running:
Receiver: Marantz SR7011 9.1 Surround
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive)125 W

Just bought an Outlaw 7000X amp:
130 watts RMS x 7 (all channels driven simultaneously into 8 ohms from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than 0.03% total harmonic distortion, A-weighted filter.

Speakers tower and center channel Elac Uni-fi UB5:
2 - Tower
  • frequency response: 42-25,000 Hz
  • sensitivity: 85 dB
  • impedance: 4 ohms
  • maximum power input: 140 watts
Center
  • frequency response: 48-25,000 Hz
  • sensitivity: 85 dB
  • impedance: 4 ohms
  • recommended amplifier power: 40-140 watts
2-Surrounds Elac Uni-Fi 2.0 bookshelves
  • frequency response: 46-35,000 Hz
  • sensitivity: 85 dB
  • impedance: 6 ohms
  • maximum power input: 140 watts
2-Height Speakers Elac Debut IC-DT61-W
  • frequency response: 45-20,000 Hz
  • recommended amplifier power: 30-120 watts
  • sensitivity: 89 dB
  • impedance: 6 ohms
2-Rear Surrounds Elac Uni-Fi UB5 bookshelves
  • frequency response: 46-25,000 Hz
  • sensitivity: 85 dB
  • impedance: 4 ohms
  • maximum power input: 140 watts
Subwoofer Sumiko S.9
  • frequency response: 35-120 Hz (-3dB)
  • 350-watt built-in Class AB amplifier (700-watts peak power)
  • down-firing 10" long-throw, treated-paper cone woofer with front-firing 10" passive radiator
  • bass reflex (passive radiator) cabinet design
  • continuously variable low-pass 30-120 Hz crossover
Settings of Receiver:
All speakers are set to small to utilize the full capacity of my subwoofer LFE. My receiver crossover is set to 80 Hz. I've used my Audyssey MultEQ XT32 to setup my speakers. My home theater area is approximately 10ft x 13ft.

My first expressions with the 7000X is my speakers have definitely come to life a bit more. My Marantz was lacking from a transformer standpoint, as I continued to add more speakers to my surround system. The fidelity was loss became more and more evident. With this being said I have to admit that I expected more volume after hooking in the Outlaw 7000X. I've always had to turn my receiver up to 3/4 volume to get a good surround sound from my perspective? Is this normal? This is still the case even with the new 7000X addition. I don't feel that at this 3/4 volume that I'm blowing the walls out by any means, but probably should. I read plenty of reviews before purchasing the 7000X, that the volume increased was no problem with distortion kept to a minimum. I can tell my center channel starts to distort as I take the volume up higher. I've read that I'm probably only increasing my 9 channels by about 3db. So I'm tempted for the cost, to replace the 7000X with a 7-channel Monolith at 200 watts per channel RMS. I'm asking for some feedback on this, I'm I barking up the wrong tree, do I not have things set correctly? I'm I asking to much from my speakers? Just feels like a rabbit hole at times to get an impressive home theater setup with spending 15,000-20,000. As you can see I've currently invested quick a bit of time and money!!! Please help!
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
ELAC isn't know for blow-the-walls-down Sensitivity. By most accounts they aren't bad Speakers, but 85dB Sensitivity and "140w" rating, there is only so much you can get from them. Honetly, I seem to recall several years ago, the ELACs were regarded as being a bit too "polite" if anything.

The Outlaw Amp is also very well regarded as a good quality Amp, as are the Monolith offerings. 70w more juice from the Monoliths won't really equate to much more than about 1dB increase in SPL.

You aren't in a very large room, and I can't imagine that you are sitting much further than about 8' from the mains unless you are backed up on a wall. Given that, 128w is enough to hit Reference level peaks (105dB) at 1m, maybe a little less at seated distance, but it should still drive you from the room unless you are already hearing impaired.

I think you bring up a valid question though in how your system is setup. You would need to show us some photos or a diagram of where your seated position and speakers are to better understand how your setup is... or just compare against the Dolby setup guides. Sometimes Speaker placement can be the biggest probelm, especially fitting a 7-channel bed layer in a small room.
Likewise, how Audyssey calibrates your system can have an impact...

...So, many other variables that can be at play affecting your system, not just the Amp.

If you are unhappy with the Outlaw and want to return it, go for it... just don't fall victim to the idea that an Amp will fix everything. You may find on honest reflection that the Monolith isn't much different... or you'll be completely blown away that some veil was lifted. :p
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The power differences between your avr and the Outlaw 7000 amp aren't that great, less than 1 dB different. Even a more powerful amp like the Monolith only works out to a 1.9dB advantage over the Outlaw, not a lot. The avr volume level is what reading particularly? It's in dB, so figuring you're at 75% isn't particularly likely (especially considering a doubling of power is only a 3dB difference).
 
D

drummertime

Junior Audioholic
ELAC isn't know for blow-the-walls-down Sensitivity. By most accounts they aren't bad Speakers, but 85dB Sensitivity and "140w" rating, there is only so much you can get from them. Honetly, I seem to recall several years ago, the ELACs were regarded as being a bit too "polite" if anything.

The Outlaw Amp is also very well regarded as a good quality Amp, as are the Monolith offerings. 70w more juice from the Monoliths won't really equate to much more than about 1dB increase in SPL.

You aren't in a very large room, and I can't imagine that you are sitting much further than about 8' from the mains unless you are backed up on a wall. Given that, 128w is enough to hit Reference level peaks (105dB) at 1m, maybe a little less at seated distance, but it should still drive you from the room unless you are already hearing impaired.

I think you bring up a valid question though in how your system is setup. You would need to show us some photos or a diagram of where your seated position and speakers are to better understand how your setup is... or just compare against the Dolby setup guides. Sometimes Speaker placement can be the biggest probelm, especially fitting a 7-channel bed layer in a small room.
Likewise, how Audyssey calibrates your system can have an impact...

...So, many other variables that can be at play affecting your system, not just the Amp.

If you are unhappy with the Outlaw and want to return it, go for it... just don't fall victim to the idea that an Amp will fix everything. You may find on honest reflection that the Monolith isn't much different... or you'll be completely blown away that some veil was lifted. :p
Thank you so much for your comment! From reading, it sounds as though the amp should be plenty. But comes down to the speakers and placement within the room. I've included a few pictures to show placement.

 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
From a setup perspective, it looks like you are trying to get the best set up you can. There are definitely some things you could change if you were inclined to pursue the endeavor. Your Surrounds and Rears are too far forward for each placement.
That being said, we all have limitations we have to work with in our own environments... Mine included. Few of us really get to layout a perfect setup. ;)

In terms of your mains SPL... Speakers aside, you would have to look at what Audyssey is setting your levels at. You can post a photo of your Aud Levels if you want.

Did you redo Aud after installing the Amp?
 
D

drummertime

Junior Audioholic
From a setup perspective, it looks like you are trying to get the best set up you can. There are definitely some things you could change if you were inclined to pursue the endeavor. Your Surrounds and Rears are too far forward for each placement.
That being said, we all have limitations we have to work with in our own environments... Mine included. Few of us really get to layout a perfect setup. ;)

In terms of your mains SPL... Speakers aside, you would have to look at what Audyssey is setting your levels at. You can post a photo of your Aud Levels if you want.

Did you redo Aud after installing the Amp?
I haven't ran a new Aud setup, just got the Amp yesterday. But I will definitely run another setup and send the levels. Also tempted to buy an spl meter. Want to be sure I'm not doing damage to my hearing. Although I don't ask people to repeat themselves often
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I haven't ran a new Aud setup, just got the Amp yesterday. But I will definitely run another setup and send the levels. Also tempted to buy an spl meter. Want to be sure I'm not doing damage to my hearing. Although I don't ask people to repeat themselves often
You should set your volume display to Relative if not already... it's a little better at placing where you are against Reference Level. Saying you have to turn it up 3/4s is a meaningless statement. ;) Keep in mind, every source behaves differently so one may be louder than another, regardless of what "volume" scale you use.
It's pretty common though to see most people running about -10 - -15dB in a home setting for Music and HT...
Actual THX Reference Level of 85-105dB is very loud and prolonged exposure at those SPL levels is absolutely damaging.

You can get decent digital meters from Amazon without breaking the bank (I purchased the RisePro brand and it works well enough). If you use an iPhone, apparently some of the apps are fairly accurate, too, though I haven't tried any of them.
 
D

drummertime

Junior Audioholic
You should set your volume display to Relative if not already... it's a little better at placing where you are against Reference Level. Saying you have to turn it up 3/4s is a meaningless statement. ;) Keep in mind, every source behaves differently so one may be louder than another, regardless of what "volume" scale you use.
It's pretty common though to see most people running about -10 - -15dB in a home setting for Music and HT...
Actual THX Reference Level of 85-105dB is very loud and prolonged exposure at those SPL levels is absolutely damaging.

You can get decent digital meters from Amazon without breaking the bank (I purchased the RisePro brand and it works well enough). If you use an iPhone, apparently some of the apps are fairly accurate, too, though I haven't tried any of them.
Yep I was looking at my volume settings. I'll switch over to relative for sure, find my typical volume and report that as well. I was looking at my max volume being 0-90 but most of my volume settings are around 70. But I realize that is very subjective and doesn't mean much.

I'll also move my surround speakers up in line with the couch. The rear surrounds are mounted to the wall, so can't do much with those based on room size. I tried speaker stands but the couch back is too high to get anything to work for line of site, other then the wall mounts.
 
ban25

ban25

Audioholic
Also make sure you have your speakers set to "Small" in the AVR Setup and Bass set to "LFE", not "LFE+Main". This will ensure that frequencies below your crossover are sent to the subwoofer. Lastly, with Audyssey, it's advisable to use the $20 mobile app (or $200 PC app) to remove the Mid-Range Correction (MRC) and increase the bass curve to taste. A straight-on-the-AVR Audyssey calibration will tend to suck out quite a bit of bass and mid-range.
 
D

drummertime

Junior Audioholic
Also make sure you have your speakers set to "Small" in the AVR Setup and Bass set to "LFE", not "LFE+Main". This will ensure that frequencies below your crossover are sent to the subwoofer. Lastly, with Audyssey, it's advisable to use the $20 mobile app (or $200 PC app) to remove the Mid-Range Correction (MRC) and increase the bass curve to taste. A straight-on-the-AVR Audyssey calibration will tend to suck out quite a bit of bass and mid-range.
Thanks for the input Yep after reading the setup section in Audioholics. I've set all speakers to small, I have the crossover set to 80 hz for all speakers. I have my sub crossover set to 120 hz. The hi/ low set to min and the volume half way up. All suggestions from the audioholic setup guide. I also have my phase set to 0.
I have to say that I'm not sure that I'm a huge fan of the Audyssey setup. I've used it in the past and wasn't that impressed with the sound. I typically end up switching back to manual mode and set my own speaker levels. I've always felt that I can set my listening levels better by ear. But I suppose that doesn't factor in the frequencies that can cause unwanted distortion or cancel each other out. I was a little lery of using the apps thinking that the Audyssey within my AV receiver would be a better setup. But for 20 bucks the app is worth a shot! I've also ordered a spl meter.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks for the input Yep after reading the setup section in Audioholics. I've set all speakers to small, I have the crossover set to 80 hz for all speakers. I have my sub crossover set to 120 hz. The hi/ low set to min and the volume half way up. All suggestions from the audioholic setup guide. I also have my phase set to 0.
I have to say that I'm not sure that I'm a huge fan of the Audyssey setup. I've used it in the past and wasn't that impressed with the sound. I typically end up switching back to manual mode and set my own speaker levels. I've always felt that I can set my listening levels better by ear. But I suppose that doesn't factor in the frequencies that can cause unwanted distortion or cancel each other out. I was a little lery of using the apps thinking that the Audyssey within my AV receiver would be a better setup. But for 20 bucks the app is worth a shot! I've also ordered a spl meter.
What sub crossover? The crossover is that between speaker and sub (80). The low pass filter on the sub itself or the LPF of LFE? If the former, is that max? If the latter, that's a normal setting.

If you really want to get into seeing what's going on, get a usb measurement mic for more possibilities (it can do spl meter functions, too).
 
ban25

ban25

Audioholic
Thanks for the input Yep after reading the setup section in Audioholics. I've set all speakers to small, I have the crossover set to 80 hz for all speakers. I have my sub crossover set to 120 hz. The hi/ low set to min and the volume half way up. All suggestions from the audioholic setup guide. I also have my phase set to 0.
I have to say that I'm not sure that I'm a huge fan of the Audyssey setup. I've used it in the past and wasn't that impressed with the sound. I typically end up switching back to manual mode and set my own speaker levels. I've always felt that I can set my listening levels better by ear. But I suppose that doesn't factor in the frequencies that can cause unwanted distortion or cancel each other out. I was a little lery of using the apps thinking that the Audyssey within my AV receiver would be a better setup. But for 20 bucks the app is worth a shot! I've also ordered a spl meter.
The app will help a lot. Like you, I am definitely not a fan of the stock Audyssey calibration, but it can be made to sound excellent with some tweaking!

PENG has an excellent thread on the topic here:

 
D

drummertime

Junior Audioholic
What sub crossover? The crossover is that between speaker and sub (80). The low pass filter on the sub itself or the LPF of LFE? If the former, is that max? If the latter, that's a normal setting.

If you really want to get into seeing what's going on, get a usb measurement mic for more possibilities (it can do spl meter functions, too).
I was referring to the continuously variable low-pass 30-120 Hz crossover on my subwoofer. I have this set to 120hz. Awesome advice, if the mic works well and can also be an spl then I'll cancel my order for spl meter and just get the mic.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I was referring to the continuously variable low-pass 30-120 Hz crossover on my subwoofer. I have this set to 120hz. Awesome advice, if the mic works well and can also be an spl then I'll cancel my order for spl meter and just get the mic.
Keep in mind for that Mic... you need something like the MiniDSP Umik-1 and Room EQ Wizard (REW) on a Laptop or computer near enough to your system that you can connect via HDMI.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Keep in mind for that Mic... you need something like the MiniDSP Umik-1 and Room EQ Wizard (REW) on a Laptop or computer near enough to your system that you can connect via HDMI.
Sometimes I assume everyone has such a laptop :)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I was referring to the continuously variable low-pass 30-120 Hz crossover on my subwoofer. I have this set to 120hz. Awesome advice, if the mic works well and can also be an spl then I'll cancel my order for spl meter and just get the mic.
I'd just call it a low pass filter even if labeled as crossover (unless it actually has a high pass for speakers?). Maxing it out is a good way to go, altho some have a specific LFE input that will do that automatically. Yes, the mic can do spl meter functions....download Room EQ Wizard to go along with it. Like Ryan points out, too.
 
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